Should Christians Be Forced to Photograph Gay Weddings?

Well, yes, I *do *believe that any monkey with a camera is as good as any other. I think all camera-toting monkeys deserve equal protection under the law? Are you suggesting otherwise?

However, since I think you actually want to know if I think a monkey with a camera is equal to a professional photographer, let me direct you back to my post and ask you to please point out which words you arranged in your head to mean that.

You are welcome—nay, encouraged—to believe whatever strikes your fancy about the artistic merit of photographs, monkey photographers and/or same-sex spouses of monkey photographers. So are the proprietors of Elane’s Photography. However—and this is the part you should really pay attention to—you are still required to operate your business under the laws of the state in which you operate. If you don’t do so, you will be required to pay whatever penalties that state has set up for offenders such as yourself.

BING! The conclusion you have reached is not correct. Please check your assumptions and dial again, or at least quote the part of my post that you think suggests that art only exists in works that are published.

You can toss jargon at it all you want, but what we’re discussing here (if we go by my actual remarks and not your inaccurate interpretation thereof) is whether a commercial service offered to the public is exempt from the laws of the region in which it is offered simply because it purports to contain artistic elements.

Really? We’re going with a personal anecdote about recommending a wedding photographer in a discussion about discrimination, art and the First Amendment? If all works that require some creative input require First Amendment protection when their makers violate the law, I’m going to start making baby furniture out of all that radioactive scrap washing up on the West Coast.

Generally when I see a list of legal cases cited in a post I assume that they were put there to illustrate the author’s point and to support his or her claims. As I noted, I didn’t think the cases you cited did either of those. I disagree with your contention that the defendent in this case is in some way exempt from complying with the laws of New Mexico simply because she is a photographer. I think we can agree that it will be interesting to see how this case is ultimately resolved.

The ones done for “hire” speak to the professionalism and overall competence of the photographer

those done for the artistic side - whether done for hire or not - speak to the voice.

IOW, photographing an ‘event’ for a company/person on hire - is more about the company/persons voice and not about the photographer. they are, in affect - a voiceless ‘non entity’ to the proceedings.

If the photographer is part of the proceedings, then it speaks more to the photographers ‘voice’.

P

I am somehow reminded of an old definition for “professional” that I heard once.
A Professional is someone who can do their best work even if they don’t feel like it.

(For the record, I do not believe that artistic expression is a valid excuse to refuse to perform a service for hire.)

Well, maybe be and the Court will determine this precise issue for us. However, I do believe they are expressive conduct and a contrary result would be inconsistent with what federal courts have said regarding photographs and copyright and some of the older cases decided by the U.S. Supreme Court regarding expressive conduct in photographs.

In order for a photograph to receive copyright protection requires, among other elements, expression. Federal courts have indeed found photographs to contain expression and to be expressive, i.e. contain and convey a message/speech. Federal courts have also discussed how this is accomplished.

Federal courts have historically applied a generous standard of originality in evaluating photographic works for copyright protection. See, e.g., Ets-Hokin, 225 F.3d at 1073-77; SHL Imaging, Inc. v. Artisan House, Inc., 117 F. Supp. 2d 301, 305 (S.D.N.Y. 2000). In some cases, the original expression may be found in the staging and creation of the scene depicted in the photograph. See, e.g., Mannion v. Coors Brewing Co., 377 F. Supp. 2d 444, 452 (S.D.N.Y. 2005). But in many cases, the photographer [**13] does not invent the scene or create the subject matter depicted in it. Rather, the original expression he contributes lies in the rendition of the subject matter–that is, the effect created by the combination of his choices of perspective, angle, lighting, shading, focus, lens, and so on. *Schrock v. Learning Curve Int’l, Inc., 586 F.3d 513, (7th Circuit) *

Rogers v. Koons, 960 F.2d 301, 307 (2d Cir. 1992) “Elements of originality in a photograph may include posing the subjects, lighting, angle, selection of film and camera, evoking the desired expression, and almost any other variant involved.”).

In the context of photography, it has been long established that copyrightable expression includes selecting and arranging the subject matter, deciding on the composition and camera angles of the photograph, and determining the lighting as well as when to take the photograph. Brod v. Gen. Publ’g Group, Inc., 32 Fed. Appx. 231, (9th Circuit). Citing a U.S. Supreme Court decision of Burrow-Giles Lithographic Co. v. Sarony, 111 U.S. 53.

It is, therefore, much more important that when the supposed author sues for a violation of his copyright, the [*60] existence of those facts of originality, of intellectual production, of thought, and conception on the part of the author should be proved, than in the case of a patent right.

In the case before us we think this has been done.

The third finding of facts says, in regard to the photograph in question, that it is a “useful, new, harmonious, characteristic, and graceful picture, and that plaintiff made the same . . . entirely from his own original mental conception, to which he gave visible form by posing the said Oscar Wilde in front of the camera, selecting and arranging the costume, draperies, and other various accessories in said photograph, arranging the subject so as to present graceful outlines, arranging and disposing the light and shade, suggesting and evoking the desired expression, and from such disposition, arrangement, or representation, made entirely by plaintiff, he produced the picture in suit.”

These findings, we think, show this photograph to be an original work of art, the product of plaintiff’s intellectual invention, of which plaintiff is the author, and of a class of inventions for which the Constitution intended that Congress should secure to him the exclusive right to use, publish and sell, as it has done by section 4952 of the Revised Statutes.
Burrow-Giles Lithographic Co. v. Sarony, 111 U.S. 53.

Based on these rulings, photographs of the kind Elane Photography was asked to do are not “purely commercial activity” when and where her choices and decisions are “the effect created by the combination of his choices of perspective, angle, lighting, shading, focus, lens, and so on.” When she chooses the perspective, angle, lighting, shading, focus, lens, and so on, then we have expression, speech, captured in a medium, the medium being the photograph, according to these copyright cases.

It would indeed be an odd proposition for expression and speech to exist in photographs for copyright protection but not for the 1st Amendment Free Speech Clause.

I think the better and stronger position is these photographs, photographs of what is called “commitment” pictures, engagement pictures, wedding pictures, in which the photographer controls the angles, editing, lighting, shading, focus, lens, arrangement of people, where they stand, how close, how far apart etcetera, lighting, then we have expressive conduct.

In my opinion, it is speech.

I won’t try to argue your points - but I think you are stretching this.

As a personal photo, looking for copyright protections, etc - then sure - a photo can certainly convey ‘speech’. Certainly a photo can be taken that is specifically designed to ‘speak’ for the photographers will.

In a ‘for hire’ - while there are certainly artistic standards that can be applied - I do not believe it qualifies as speech of the photographer - not in the normal sense of the word - its more about the speech of the event that is being photographed.

Is the photographer a participant of the event (actively participating in) or simply recording pictures at the request of another?

I think that is the clearer distinction in these matters.

Photography can be an artistic endeavor, but it is not intrinsically so.

If hire someone to take photos of my wedding, I don’t want their ARTISTIC interpretation of the event. I want someone who will produce images that are in focus, nicely lit, and nicely composed. I want someone who is skilled at the CRAFT of photography, and who is willing to put their personal artistic sensibilities on hold to produce images that meet my personal needs.

It takes a lot of skill to take good pictures. It can’t be done by a random monkey with a camera. But that doesn’t mean that every time someone takes a picture it’s a moment of artistic expression.

No, I am not interested in re-dialing your error. You can assert I reached the wrong conclusion from here to perpetuity in post after post and I could not care less. You made the error, I didn’t, and it is not a number I want to redial.

The “jargon” references essential facts and elements you are remissed in acknowledging. The actual and precise factual issue is whether commercial service would be exempt when and where the law requires them to engage in expressive conduct, engage in speech, when they do not want to, especially when it is speech or a message they disagree with. I contend they are exempt when it would require them to speak because speech compulsions are prohibited by the 1st Amendment.

Your “actual remarks” ignoring this important factual component of what we are discussing is the problem.

No, at this moment there isn’t any “we’re” because you aren’t discussing the 1st Amendment. I am discussing the 1st Amendment you are discussing, well, God only knows what you are actually saying so far but you certainly are not discussing the 1st Amendment.

According to the cases I just cited in my last post, you are very close to be correct in your statement above. The fact is the 1st Amendment free speech clause includes the right to be free from the government compelling anyone to speak or enage in expressive conduct. Photographs qualify when they meet the criteria enumerated in prior court decisions which I presented in my last post to another poster. It wouldn’t make any sense to think expression and speech exists in those kinds of photographs for purposes of copyright but not for the 1st Amendmet Free Speech Clause.

Actually, contrary to your claim above, they most certainly and unequivocally supported my assertion the 1st Amendment Free Speech Clause precludes the government from forcing, ordering, mandating, or compelling people to speak or engage in expressive conduct. In other words, those cases do support my assertion the 1st Amendment Free Speech Clause forbids state and federal government speech compulsions of people.

You can disagree with an argument I have never made and I couldn’t care less. I never asserted she is “exempt from complying with the laws of New Mexico simply because she is a photographer.” My argument is something else entirely, more nuanced, and more qualified.

I asserted she cannot be compelled to take photographs of a same sex wedding or even a same sex “commitment” because to do so constitutes as expressive conduct on her behalf, it constitutes as speech on her behalf, and she cannot, consistent with the 1st Amendment Free Speech Clause, be compelled or forced to speak by the state or federal government. The basis for my exemption of this photographer is not because she is a photographer but because of the presence of expressive conduct and speech in taking the pictures and the 1st Amendment protects her right not to speak or engage in expressive conduct.

I agree. I hope the U.S. Supreme Court ultimately decides it.

I was joking when I said all photographers were the same, hence the smiley. Again, all commercial enterprises vary in quality, so that’s hardly relevant.

Whether or not a contract is satisfied depends on the expectations of the parties. In contract law, those expectations which are explicitly set forth in the contract may be supplemented by trade usage; even if there is a written contract and it doesn’t say, “photographer will be present to take pictures of the wedding”, that would clearly be a legitimate expectation implied in the contract.

So no, setting up a bunch of drone cameras would not fulfil the contract. Now, does that mean the service is “expressive” or “artistic”? Of course not. The fact that there are no machines capable of performing a given task does not make that task “art”. The best shoes are still made by hand, but that doesn’t mean a cobbler is an artist.

I will concede one point: artistic or personal service is implied by the hiring of a person, rather than a company. If the couple in question specifically tried to hire one of Elane’s photographers (I understand there are two, and they are husband and wife) then you are clearly talking about a personal services contract.

However, that doesn’t appear to be the case; they tried to hire Elane Photography, LLC, who theoretically could have sent along anyone they liked who was qualified to shoot an event of this type.

I don’t think there’s much to be gained from how courts rule on expressive conduct vis-a-vis copyright law versus expressive conduct as it relates to free speech. The underlying rationales are totally different.

Hmm, I must be crossing my wires–I thought I’d read that the photog had initially agreed to shoot a wedding, but then cancelled when she found out it was a same-sex ceremony, but I can’t find a cite for that now.

If you ask me, it’s not the “getting paid” that’s the upshot. It’s the “getting paid to actualize specific artistic decisions that the client has made”, or putting out a shingle effectively advertising the same, that I think negates the “free expression” nature of the business to a large extent.

If I pay an artist to create some images of characters I’ve described (as I’ve done for a game I worked on back in the day), it’s no longer solely the single artist’s expression–it’s even credited as such: “Concept by Zeriel, Artwork by ArtistGuy”. As such, the client (or potential client, in discrimination cases) develops rights regarding the eventual shared artistic creation.

Similarly, my wedding photographer supplied a good amount of artistic expression to my wedding photos, but at least part of the expression in the photos was supplied by my and my wife’s choice of flowers, of venue, apparel, time of day, etc. An artist for hire is deliberately choosing to lower the impact of his own expression on the total work.

I would argue that you might have more of a case in the case of a situation where an artist had a business that essentially had a model of “Give me $200, and I’ll make you something pretty, based on my judgement”. Such businesses typically do not exist, because there are not many people who are crazy enough to pay sight-unseen for a piece of artwork.

ETA: Hamster King said basically what I was getting at, only better phrased.

Perhaps you are correct, however, what is problematic to your analysis is what those decisions say about how photographs are expressive of the photographer. The photographer is engaged in expressive conduct when those elements are met and this would include photographs of an event. Yes, the event itself may have its own speech but the photographers photos of the event, when they make decisions about editing, lighting, arrangement of people and things in the event for the photo, angles, shading, focus, lens, etcetera, then you have the photographer’s expression and speech of an event communicating a message.

The fact the photographer is taking pictures of an event communicating a message is not an impediment to the author engaging in expressive conduct and speech when they take pictures of the event and control how it appears by deciding the lighting, shading, editing, angles, focus, lens, and arrangements of people and things. The photographer is still engaging in expressive conduct and speech even when photographing an event communicating a message.

It would be no different than someone being paid to write about their observance of an event communicating a message, such as a Clan rally, and using words to express and convey, in their own meaning and perception, the Clan rally itself. The individual’s writing still constitutes as speech and speech of the individual despite the fact they are commenting upon an event communicating a message.

They are the same in regards to one important feature and where they are identical is in the demand for the existence of speech, a message, expressive conduct. To receive copyright protection there must speech, a message, expression, and to receive 1st Amendment protection under the Free Speech Clause requires the presence of speech, a message, expressive conduct.

It would then indeed be rather odd for speech to exist for copyright protection in regards to photographs but not for the 1st Amendment Free Speech Clause when both extend their protections to “speech.”

Nah, just think of it as a venn diagram, with speech, a message, expressive conduct in the overlapping part.

It doesn’t need to–it’s just the case that a photographer for hire isn’t generating his own “speech”, he’s creating a composite artwork using some varying amount of expression from his own ability and a (greater, IMHO) amount of expression provided by the client’s vision of the objects and situations to be photographed.

Again: Once a photographer expresses that he is willing to constrain his own contribution to the overall artistic expression of a piece (by offering to take photos of subjects and at times and in conditions of his employer’s choosing) he becomes a craftsman making a work for hire, which copyright and expression rights pretty clearly belong at least in part to the person commissioning the art.

So does this mean that artists for hire that sing or play instruments have to be equal opportunity contractors?

The pertains to “public accomodations” not to people, I go to the place to tale pictures.

The law can end up being so intrusive as to not allow me to sell pork chops because it discriminates against jews and muslims.

You may have it confused with the recent case where a printing company at first agreed, and then later backed out, of an agreement to print t-shirts for a gay rights event.

Anyway, I don’t see how this ruling is compelling any sort of speech from the photographers. NotreDame has defined the following as components of artistic expression in photography: “the angles, editing, lighting, shading, focus, lens, arrangement of people, where they stand, how close, how far apart etcetera, lighting.” I don’t see where the state is mandating the inclusion or exclusion of any of those elements in the photographer’s work, not do I see any indication that those elements must be executed in a particular way. The law does not require that the photographs be taken in a way that present SSM in a positive light, only that the business cannot refuse custom from someone solely due to their sexual orientation. If wedding photography is sufficiently expressive that it deserves first amendment protections, then surely it is sufficiently expressive to communicate that two dudes or two ladies shacking up together is a bad thing. There is, as far as I’m aware, no legal bar to this company taking the job and then taking pictures in such a way that it is clear that they do not approve of the ceremony they are documenting.

I would, of course, argue that the couple in question is within their legal right to refuse payment for such pictures, but that’s an entirely different body of law.

I imagine that any musician for hire that refused to work for black people, for example, would fall equally afoul of the law. However, if he took the job, but only performed Prussian Blue’s Greatest Hits during the gig, he would be legally in the clear, at least as far as this particular law goes.

As a former semi-pro singer, I look at it this way:

If I offer to perform for anyone who will pay me $X, then someone offers to pay me $X and I refuse on the grounds that they are gay, or Christian, or black–yes, I should be forced to either perform or pay a penalty.

If I offer to perform songs that my client selects with no caveats, I should not be then allowed to refuse to sing a Christian hymn.

If I offer my services as a gigging/backup musician with no caveats, I should not be then allowed to refuse to sing backing vocals on a rap track with a black lead singer.

If any of my caveats above are “I don’t perform for gays/Jews/blacks” or similarly touch upon a specific protected group, I am afoul of the law.

If any of my caveats are generalized but prevent similar things, such as “I don’t perform religious music/for political groups”, then I am in the clear to refuse Christians and Black Panthers and MoveOn.org.

Crucially, perhaps–if I only offer my singing services to selected parties, then I am no longer providing a public accommodation. If I do 1500 gigs where I go to a gay rights club and offer to sing for a fee, and then do so and get paid, but never solicit business, IMHO I’m perfectly within my rights to tell a Christian group to blow smoke if they want me to sing.

It’s really not all that hard–if I want to offer my services to the public at large (as defined in law), I MUST offer them to the public at large and not to “the public at large, except for that group”.

So then, would an actor, for example, be obligated to accept any role they were offered?

How can an actor be a public accomodation?

Of course not. But if the actor is refusing to perform because of the race, creed, or sexual orientation of the audience members, then they could be penalized under state anti-discrimination statutes.