# Should churches be able to have their own state-sanctioned police force? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959 "2017-03-11T22:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/221 "2017-03-15T20:50:00Z")
And religious railroads can get them too? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/222 "2017-03-15T20:58:05Z")
Pretty sure all the religious railroads have them, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/223 "2017-03-15T21:40:33Z")
Only for their Holy Rolling stock, though. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/224 "2017-03-15T21:43:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Cart before the horse. First you have to show that a private police force where there already exists a _public_ police force is justified. It has already been point out why there are separate railroad police and why _some_ colleges/universities have their own police-in the same way this idea of _this particular church_ having the same privilege must also be justified. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Only if all private organizations are now allowed to have their own private police police forces. > > Are they? I think you’re wrong, **Czarcasm** … the Alabama State Legislature doesn’t have to justify their actions … they can pass any bill they want to and they don’t have to answer to anyone why they did … they only have to face the voters … Yeah, any private organization can have a private police force when there is a written law that says they can … if someone wants to have the courts intervene, then _that_ person has to make their case … WHY is it unconstitutional for the legislature to pass a law allowing a private organization have their own police force? … Again I ask … what is it about preists that make them intrinsically more corrupt than politicians … [giggle] … in Alabama? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/225 "2017-03-15T21:56:03Z")
As far as I can tell from the linked article in the OP, the main reason they want actual police with badges and not security guards is deterrence: > [@](#): > > “Officer presence is the No. 1 line of defense,” \<…\> “You’ve got to have some presence here,” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/226 "2017-03-15T21:56:05Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Again I ask … what is it about preists that make them intrinsically more corrupt than politicians … [giggle] … in Alabama? While your disdain for democracy is duly noted, their election makes them more valid leaders. Yes there are corrupt politicians but that still smells better than corrupt priests. Unless [giggle] you think there’s no corrupt priests in Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/227 "2017-03-15T22:03:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Discriminating against religious organizations is interfering with the free exercise of religion. How? > [@](#): > > Allowing private organizations to have their own police but preventing religious organizations from having them for no other reason than because they are religious, is discrimination. Yeah, so? > [@](#): > > Therefore preventing religious organizations from doing what other private organizations can do is a violation of the First Amendment. How so? > [@](#): > > QED. > > Regards, > Shodan Can you or can’t you articulate how prohibiting a church form having their own police force while letting universities have their own police force interferes in any way with the free exercise of their religion? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/228 "2017-03-15T22:05:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Only if all private organizations are now allowed to have their own private police police forces. > > Are they? Even then, its not a violation of the first amendment. It may be impermissible discrimination but I don’t see the first amendment angle. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/229 "2017-03-15T23:13:50Z")
You know, I am not a lawyer so maybe giving a specific church a police department will pass legal muster regarding the separation of church and state. Flirting with my sister in law isn’t cheating on my wife but I’m still not going to do it. I find the willingness to flirt with churches running police departments equally dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/230 "2017-03-16T02:18:37Z")
Give people badges and it goes to their head. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/231 "2017-03-16T03:35:19Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You know, I am not a lawyer so maybe giving a specific church a police department will pass legal muster regarding the separation of church and state. Flirting with my sister in law isn’t cheating on my wife but I’m still not going to do it. I find the willingness to flirt with churches running police departments equally dangerous. You would agree that the government may provide a connection to the city water supply to a church, right? So long as it paid the water bill? I would also assume that you would agree that the government could not prohibit the church from connecting to the city water supply just because it is a church? Well, this is no different. The fact that it is a church must not play any role, good or bad, in the decision whether to allow it to have a police force. That’s the crux of the First Amendment argument being made. If the Legislature would allow a similarly situated non-religious organization to have a police force, then it must consider the church’s request by the same standards. Likewise, if it would not allow a similarly situated non-religious organization to have a police force, it may not give special favors in allowing the church to have a police force. Take religion completely out of the picture and decide whether the secular factors suggest a police force is needed or would otherwise be allowed. That is what the Constitution requires. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/232 "2017-03-16T12:34:21Z")
Hmmm, " a similarly situated non-religious organization"? I’m trying to think of some non-religious churches. You mean like Unitarians? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/233 "2017-03-16T12:36:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Can you or can’t you articulate how prohibiting a church form having their own police force while letting universities have their own police force interferes in any way with the free exercise of their religion? I can only post it. I can’t understand it for you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/234 "2017-03-16T14:18:35Z")
You can only repeat it. You cannot explain it. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/235 "2017-03-16T14:57:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > While your disdain for democracy is duly noted, their election makes them more valid leaders. Yes there are corrupt politicians but that still smells better than corrupt priests. Unless [giggle] you think there’s no corrupt priests in Alabama. You’re funny … out of one side of your mouth you say the Alabama legislature and governor are the duly elected and _valid_ leaders … then out the other side of your mouth you say they are corrupt to the bone by passing this bill into law … so this comes down to churches having their own police force is a completely valid form of corruption … yeah … tyranny of the majority indeed … I do think rates of corruption is less in the priesthood than in politics … there’s actually rules forbidding a priest’s lying tongue … whereas politicians have a guarantied Constitutional right to lie … but if you like the smell of a corrupt District Attorney, then I can see why you hold your position … ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/236 "2017-03-16T15:00:51Z")
WTF? Where did I say they’re “corrupt to the bone”? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/237 "2017-03-16T15:07:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > For what it’s worth, I think religion _is_ icky, but I can’t see an inherent problem with a police department (bound to the same regulations and training requirements as police departments elsewhere in the state) whose jurisdiction was a church “campus”. The problem I _do_ have is trying to picture a church “campus” that was large enough to justify a local police department, but that’s just me being compelled to consider what is practical. > > Incidentally, does separation of church and state in the U.S. extend as far as saying a priest cannot hold elected office? There is nothing saying that a priest cannot hold office. Mike Huckabee was a Baptist Minister prior to becoming Lieutenant Governor of Arkansas (though I believe he resigned as minister during the year he won election). It would not violate the Establishment Clause (which is as far as separation of church and state in the US goes). And there are a few church campuses that are the size of small colleges - with multiple buildings for worship (usually one being for children’s church and the other being adult worship, though the children’s church can be broken out into age groups with each group getting their own smaller building) and then schools. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/238 "2017-03-16T15:15:26Z")
Did any of these organizations that have their own police force(universities, railroads etc.) just start doing this without going through proper channels to get approval first? ---
**Author:** ![de\_facto\_lies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba8739/32.png) [@de\_facto\_lies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/de_facto_lies)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/239 "2017-03-16T15:47:04Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I do think rates of corruption is less in the priesthood than in politics … there’s actually rules forbidding a priest’s lying tongue … whereas politicians have a guarantied Constitutional right to lie … but if you like the smell of a corrupt District Attorney, then I can see why you hold your position … Forgive me if I sound crude, but aren’t there rules forbidding priests from raping little boys? which they did…and then lied about it? the mere presence of “rules” does not stop anyone from breaking them. Is there a history of this church and its grounds being targeted? Is there a significant issue with the response times of local police? have they had entire cemeteries desecrated and vandalized? if this was a majority Muslim or Jewish community which had enough wealth to afford its own police force would the same arguments be made in favor? Unfortunately here in America there would be protests and marches for fear of the oncoming “sharia law” of the land. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/240 "2017-03-16T16:44:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did any of these organizations that have their own police force(universities, railroads etc.) just start doing this without going through proper channels to get approval first? A police force by definition is granted legal authority under the auspices of the state. Since sovereign governments are the ultimate authority over a territory, any delegation of authority over some geographic subdivision of that territory must be by the permission or acquiescence of that sovereign. Although extensively refined in modern times, in principle this goes straight back to feudalism with suzerains and vassals. In my home state of Minnesota, the University of Minnesota enjoys a special legal status because it was originally a territorial “land grant” college, and literally was here before the state government. In the case of railroads it was recognized that it was impossible to subdivide authority over the right of way between every local jurisdiction the tracks passed through, and most railroads have legal authority built into the grants and titles that establish ownership of the tracks. So while any private property can be patrolled by security guards, no one can just slap a badge on their chest and start calling themselves police. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=13)