# Should churches be able to have their own state-sanctioned police force? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959 "2017-03-11T22:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/241 "2017-03-16T16:48:50Z")
> [@de\_facto\_lies](#): > > Forgive me if I sound crude, but aren’t there rules forbidding priests from raping little boys? which they did…and then lied about it? the mere presence of “rules” does not stop anyone from breaking them. > > Is there a history of this church and its grounds being targeted? Is there a significant issue with the response times of local police? have they had entire cemeteries desecrated and vandalized? if this was a majority Muslim or Jewish community which had enough wealth to afford its own police force would the same arguments be made in favor? > > Unfortunately here in America there would be protests and marches for fear of the oncoming “sharia law” of the land. One thing that has not been addressed by Shodan or any of the other pro-church police in this thread is how they would feel about a mosque having its own police force. The fact that they have not responded to these points gives me the opinion that they would be against it, but that they could not articulate why, without undermining their argument for christian churches to have a police force. So, if you are for a Christian church having its own police force, do you also extend that to other (and all) religions? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/242 "2017-03-16T17:17:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, if you are for a Christian church having its own police force, do you also extend that to other (and all) religions? I’m not necessarily for any particular church having a police force, but if it meets whatever objective criteria that universities and RRs have met, then I would support them getting one. This would extend to any church (or other organization) - the whole point is that the religion or lack of religion shouldn’t enter into the discussion. My opinion is that there’s really no justification for the church in question or nearly any religious body to have a police force. But if churches can qualify for a police force, then a mosque or temple should be treated with the same objective criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/243 "2017-03-16T17:26:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > One thing that has not been addressed by Shodan or any of the other pro-church police in this thread is how they would feel about a mosque having its own police force. > > The fact that they have not responded to these points gives me the opinion that they would be against it, but that they could not articulate why, without undermining their argument for christian churches to have a police force. > > So, if you are for a Christian church having its own police force, do you also extend that to other (and all) religions? Yes. I was going to add more, but meh - not worth it. Take it or leave it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/244 "2017-03-16T17:26:17Z")
What if the company/campus/organization is based outside the U.S., owned and/or operated by foreigners? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/245 "2017-03-16T17:41:06Z")
quote from a another poster “For those wondering why they don’t just hire a security firm or contract from a local police force, the article mentions this ttidbit”: Quote: The bill was first proposed after students at Briarwood’s high school were arrested in a drug bust in early 2015, which made a splash in Birmingham-area media. While church administrators deny the raid was a catalyst for the bill, critics worry that similar instances could go unreported if the church had its own police. They want their own police so they can hide crap and not get embarrassed … so what happens when some big shots kid had his preference for 12 year old girls covered up for years ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/246 "2017-03-16T17:42:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Hmmm, " a similarly situated non-religious organization"? I’m trying to think of some non-religious churches. You mean like Unitarians? No. Other organizations where large numbers of people gather for stuff. A commuter college would be a good example. The fact that the organization is religious or not is not relevant to whether it needs its own police force. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/247 "2017-03-16T17:43:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What if the company/campus/organization is based outside the U.S., owned and/or operated by foreigners? The Canadian Pacific RR has some track in the US. According to their [Wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Pacific_Police_Service): > [@](#): > > CP Police are also deployed throughout the CP Rail System in the USA. ETA: From the CP Police page: > [@](#): > > In the United States our members are fully commissioned police officers within the State in which they operate, empowered by that State to enforce the law. The extent to which railway police officers may exercise law enforcement authority and definition of jurisdiction varies by State. > > Railway police also have a Federal Interstate authority granted under Title 49 USC 28101 which permits duly appointed railroad police officers to exercise their powers in any State.​ ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/248 "2017-03-16T17:50:54Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > No. Other organizations where large numbers of people gather for stuff. A commuter college would be a good example. > > The fact that the organization is religious or not is not relevant to whether it needs its own police force. Exactly why religious affiliated universities aren’t barred from having a police force. That’s been mentioned many times in this thread. But colleges weren’t granted police forces because “many people gather for stuff” so I’m still missing your point. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/249 "2017-03-16T17:52:28Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The Canadian Pacific RR has some track in the US. According to their [Wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Pacific_Police_Service): > > ETA: > From the CP Police page: Cool! As an aside: If Canadian officers on horses are called “Mounties”, are Canadian police on trains called “Trainies”? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/250 "2017-03-16T18:01:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What if the company/campus/organization is based outside the U.S., owned and/or operated by foreigners? As long as they’re not Dutch. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![de\_facto\_lies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba8739/32.png) [@de\_facto\_lies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/de_facto_lies)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/251 "2017-03-16T18:22:43Z")
My post was not to imply that Shodan or anyone on this thread would argue against a certain religious institution having a police force, as he very clearly points out his belief in the freedom to express ones religion. I suppose my comment was more aimed towards the general American public. As this is the first I have heard of this particular topic and situation, I’m assuming its not on the average American’s radar. while making assumptions can make an ass of anyone, I have a sneaking suspicion that if this was in fact a Mosque, in an area heavily populated by Muslims, I would be seeing a whole lot of outrage on social media about the mere possibility, the mere thought of Sharia law possibly being enforced by a religious police. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/252 "2017-03-16T18:29:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As long as they’re not Dutch. > > Regards, > Shodan It goes without saying. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/253 "2017-03-16T19:03:56Z")
I’m not sure how many here actually read the OP’s link but I haven’t seen anyone mention the rather interesting fact that this legislation actually passed last year but it seems the governor gave it a pocket veto without comment. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/254 "2017-03-17T03:31:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Exactly why religious affiliated universities aren’t barred from having a police force. That’s been mentioned many times in this thread. But colleges weren’t granted police forces because “many people gather for stuff” so I’m still missing your point. The point is: pretend it is not a church. It is a building where people come every Sunday morning and Wednesday evening to talk about their favorite movies. They all dress up and make new friends from these movie discussions. Some go out into the community and try to convince others to watch their favorite movies. If the State believes that this group should be permitted to have its own police protection, then a church should be able to as well. If not, then it is permissible to deny a church like this to have its own police protection. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/255 "2017-03-17T20:12:59Z")
I’m not particularly happy with the idea of big corporations having legally empowered police either. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/256 "2017-03-17T23:06:18Z")
I’m sure where private colleges having police forces is permitted, there are still guidelines regarding which ones are granted that ability- just because a private residential college with a campus and a population the size of a small town has an actual police force doesn’t mean that a private commuter college with the same number of students and a “campus” that consists of 5 buildings scattered across 3 city blocks would be granted one. And I certainly can’t imagine that a private college with a campus that consisted of one two story building would be allowed to have its own police force. \* ``` There are reasons why the former would be allowed to have a police department which don't apply to the latter- and I think a big one is that the former situation takes a burden off the city/village/town/county police in a way the latter doesn't. For example, a residential campus the size of a large town means that local law enforcement can reduce staffing as they will not need to patrol the campus, while the scattered commuter campus does not , as the fact that 100 Washington Street is a college building doesn't allow reduced staffing if the other six buildings on that block do not belong to the college. ``` And that’s the problem I have with the idea of churches having private police forces. So far as I can tell, the colleges mentioned as having police forces have been either large residential colleges with campuses like Notre Dame or public universities. I haven’t seen any private commuter colleges mentioned, or any with a campus that consists of buildings scattered throughout city streets . If there is somewhere a church that has a large campus with 5000 or so people living on it, I might not have a problem with them having their own police force. (but I’m not sure) ``` In order for there to be a First Amendment violation , the different treatment must have a religious basis. That's why you can't allow a private secular university to have its own police agency but not allow a private religious college to have one. But that doesn't mean you can't distinguish between groups for other reasons- you can absolutely allow a private university to have its own police force while not allowing private high schools, or museums , or community sports leagues to do so. And that also means you can allow it for a private religious university but not allow it for a church. What you can't do is allow it for all different sorts of organizations , including some that are very similar to churches (such as a Secular Humanist group) and then exclude only churches. ``` - I wonder how much of this is due to people’s visions of “church” and "college. Where I live a “church” might be anything from a rented storefront to a collection of five or so buildings on city streets and a “college” might be anything from a campus with dorms to two floors in an office buidling. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2017, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/257 "2017-03-18T04:39:00Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I’m sure where private colleges having police forces is permitted, there are still guidelines regarding which ones are granted that ability- just because a private residential college with a campus and a population the size of a small town has an actual police force doesn’t mean that a private commuter college with the same number of students and a “campus” that consists of 5 buildings scattered across 3 city blocks would be granted one. And I certainly can’t imagine that a private college with a campus that consisted of one two story building would be allowed to have its own police force. \* In Ohio, the size and population of a university does not [appear](http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/1713.50) to matter. There are guidelines, but they’re very basic. If it grants degrees and is accredited, it may form a police a department. I’m sure there aren’t many or any colleges with a single building that do have a police department, but that would be because of their own internal decisions. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/258 "2017-03-18T05:06:31Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > In Ohio, the size and population of a university does not [appear](http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/1713.50) to matter. There are guidelines, but they’re very basic. If it grants degrees and is accredited, it may form a police a department. I’m sure there aren’t many or any colleges with a single building that do have a police department, but that would be because of their own internal decisions. Basic, yes, but this part > [@](#): > > (b) It provides a program of education in residence leading to a baccalaureate degree or provides a program of education in residence, for which the baccalaureate degree is a prerequisite, leading to an academic or professional degree. definitely rules out colleges which only grant associate degrees and also rules out commuter colleges unless “program of education in residence” means something very different than it seems to. And if “in residence” means what it seems to, that in itself would eliminate colleges consisting of a single building as a practical matter. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/259 "2017-03-18T05:15:02Z")
Ah yes, I missed the residence part. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=12)