# Should churches be able to have their own state-sanctioned police force? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959 "2017-03-11T22:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/21 "2017-03-12T09:37:12Z")
This is a terrible, terrible idea. The police is the representative of law, government and justice. Not whatever private organization can afford it and who thinks they can have it because they want it. If these guys want to start a private security company to monitor their events, fine. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/22 "2017-03-12T13:33:15Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > There’s a contradiction in this article: > > this sounds like any private security force, like the rent-a-cops at the mall. > But it also says: > > “all the powers” includes the right to use handcuffs and make arrests, and right? Along with writing traffic tickets\*- leading to fines and even jail time? > > Does _any_ private security force in the country have this power? > \*(possible scenario: a drunk driver turns onto church property and drives recklessly) Some college police do. ---
**Author:** ![Pinmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@Pinmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pinmin)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/23 "2017-03-12T13:41:24Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > There’s a contradiction in this article: > > this sounds like any private security force, like the rent-a-cops at the mall. > But it also says: > > “all the powers” includes the right to use handcuffs and make arrests, and right? Along with writing traffic tickets\*- leading to fines and even jail time? > > Does _any_ private security force in the country have this power? > \*(possible scenario: a drunk driver turns onto church property and drives recklessly) Yes. As mentioned above, campus police forces. I work for a private, religiously affiliated college with a campus police force who carry guns and are full police officers. Yes, make arrests, handcuffs, etc. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/24 "2017-03-12T13:41:47Z")
Just a step on the road to this -[The Mutaween in Saudi Arabia are tasked with enforcing Sharia as defined by the government, specifically by the Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (CPVPV).](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_religious_police) But by “Christians” Baby steps don’t cha know. Oh yay. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/25 "2017-03-12T14:24:57Z")
Yeah, nice try, but these are not, by anyone’s account, officers to enforce religious rules. Nor have police forces on any university campuses, even at religious schools, evolved into such. But sure, let’s compare it to Saudi Arabia! ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/26 "2017-03-12T15:30:13Z")
'Tis said that separation of Church and State in Salt Lake City is about two city blocks … Starting with the one side, these 4,000 peoples don’t seem enough to warrant a police force … I live in a community of 5,000 and we contract out our police services to the local Sheriff’s Office … couple of rooms in City Hall serve as the police station and the three deputies rotate shifts and we have coverage from 7am to 11pm everyday … works great … so it just seems to me Briarwood is being hysterical … perhaps when the costs start adding up they’ll rethink their position … On the other side, I’m not seeing how this being a Church is relevant IF the civil law specifically disallows enforcing religious laws … which the bill referenced in the article does “Persons employed as police officers pursuant to this section shall be charged with all of the duties and invested with all of the powers of law enforcement officers in this state.” … is this a guaranty against corruption … hell no … just look at all the corruption is some City police departments … One thing not mentioned in the article is whether there’s any Equal Employment Opportunity laws in Alabama … and if so would they apply to the Church police force regarding religion … it would be funny as all get-up if Briarwood had to hire Catholics or Muslims … Work Experience: “Fourteen years in the Saudi Religious Police specializing in lopping off the heads of wimin Christians driving cars.” ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/27 "2017-03-12T15:48:31Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Why exactly do you think the church wants their own police force instead of a private security force? Think about the types of things police are allowed to do that private security forces aren’t, and then ask yourself again whether you really want a mosque or Jewish temple or a church to be allowed to do those things. I can’t really “think about” those, because I am not familiar with Alabama law enough to know what police can do there that private security or regular civilians can’t, and the article doesn’t discuss the matter at all. What specifically are the powers that their police would gain from this that private security wouldn’t have, and what are you worried about? Private citizens in Alabama can already carry a gun and make a citizen’s arrest, so what people think of at a ‘first pass’ for a cop is already something they could do. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/28 "2017-03-12T15:50:20Z")
For those wondering why they don’t just hire a security firm or contract from a local police force, the article mentions this ttidbit: > [@](#): > > The bill was first proposed after students at Briarwood’s high school were arrested in a drug bust in early 2015, which made a splash in Birmingham-area media. While church administrators deny the raid was a catalyst for the bill, critics worry that similar instances could go unreported if the church had its own police. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/29 "2017-03-12T15:59:59Z")
“Private police” are a fairly common thing in many states in the US. They exercise their authority for railroads, malls, housing projects, colleges and universities, and many other corporate and campus environments. They are sworn officers and have to meet the training requirements for other local and state law enforcement officers. They can be armed and are, within certain limits, able to enforce state and local laws on the property owned or controlled by the corporation. They can detain individuals and investigate incidents. While I don’t think it’s a great idea for a church to have a private police force, I’m not sure that I see any reason that they couldn’t legally do so in states that permit private police forces. (I’m in North Carolina, so the relevant legal basis would come from NC GS 74E.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/30 "2017-03-12T16:46:45Z")
> [@Pinmin](#): > > Yes. As mentioned above, campus police forces. I work for a private, religiously affiliated college with a campus police force who carry guns and are full police officers. Yes, make arrests, handcuffs, etc. And they’re a government function, not a private function. They’re sworn officers, regulated and licensed by the police commission and the police chief. For there to be “church police,” the city would have to assign a group of regular officers to this duty. (Which they might well do, to help with traffic and security if a church got gigantically large.) The church, as a private entity, can’t have “police” of their own. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/31 "2017-03-12T16:54:42Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Yeah, nice try, but these are not, by anyone’s account, officers to enforce religious rules. Nor have police forces on any university campuses, even at religious schools, evolved into such. > > But sure, let’s compare it to Saudi Arabia! Sure, I took some very large steps to look at the extreme. I worry about baby steps that could lead there. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/32 "2017-03-12T17:05:34Z")
I’d like a cite for a mall having a state sanctioned police force, ZonexandScout. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/33 "2017-03-12T21:55:10Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I’d like a cite for a mall having a state sanctioned police force, ZonexandScout. Depending how loose you are on defining “sanctioned”, there’s Mall of America Security: [Mall of America is a nationally recognized Security Department that fosters personal and professional growth in the criminal justice field. If you wish to play a vital role in the private security field, come join our highly motivated, professional, disciplined and industry-leading team. You will be part of a team committed to service and focused on creating a safe and enjoyable experience for guests and tenants.](https://www.mallofamerica.com/guests/security) They still call themselves part of “the private security field”, so I gather they only have the same “citizen’s arrest” rights as anyone in Minnesota. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/34 "2017-03-12T22:15:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And they’re a government function, not a private function. They’re sworn officers, regulated and licensed by the police commission and the police chief. > > For there to be “church police,” the city would have to assign a group of regular officers to this duty. (Which they might well do, to help with traffic and security if a church got gigantically large.) > > The church, as a private entity, can’t have “police” of their own. Not necessarily, no. The University of Arizona here in Tucson has its own campus police force. The officers are all certified police officers and have all of the duties and responsibilities thereof, but they are hired and paid by the university. They do not come from the City of Tucson or Pima County or any other government entity. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/35 "2017-03-12T23:42:21Z")
The alternative seems to be to force a small community that cannot afford to do so, to provide protection for a large church and congregation that are in their town. The church, rightly doesn’t want to impose that burden. At the same time wanting some protection in strange times. Sounds like the only crime addressing will likely be providing a presence, as a deterrent to attacks from a crazy person. Not really seeing the need to be taken aback. Just like a university campus bearing the costs of policing the student body and campus. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/36 "2017-03-13T00:09:23Z")
Churches have a distinct special place in society. Could we quit saying it’s just like a railroad or university? ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/37 "2017-03-13T00:21:30Z")
If they have a police force to enforce criminal laws and protect their members from crimes such as assault or robbery, I don’t see the problem as long as they’re paying for it. What difference does it make that they’re a private church? If they’re enforcing the same laws that the state or municipality has on its books, I don’t see a conflict if they enforce them on church grounds. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/38 "2017-03-13T00:55:05Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > If they have a police force to enforce criminal laws and protect their members from crimes such as assault or robbery, I don’t see the problem as long as they’re paying for it. What difference does it make that they’re a private church? If they’re enforcing the same laws that the state or municipality has on its books, I don’t see a conflict if they enforce them on church grounds. The obvious problem is that a priest would be in charge of a government sanctioned police department. Yes, this is as obvious a conflict of the separation of church and state as you could imagine. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/39 "2017-03-13T01:14:50Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The obvious problem is that a priest would be in charge of a government sanctioned police department. Yes, this is as obvious a conflict of the separation of church and state as you could imagine. I don’t see the conflict. Why wouldn’t the church put an experienced police officer in charge of the department? If the purpose of the department is strictly to enforce civil laws and not church doctrine, what’s the difference? They wouldn’t protect just church members, they’d protect any member of the public who has business on church grounds. And they wouldn’t hire only believers as officers, they’d have open applications to the public. What’s so sinister if they’re there to investigate burglaries or prevent muggings? What’s your evidence the priest would use it to enforce doctrine? In my experience, the clergy supports civil authorities unless it violates the sanctity of the confessional. If the police force is there to supplement and cooperate with municipal authorities, I don’t see the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/40 "2017-03-13T01:28:05Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Churches have a distinct special place in society. Could we quit saying it’s just like a railroad or university? Well, my first impression was to think it odd that a private institution would have its own police force, until I realized that that was perfectly normal in the case of universities. So it’s at least like a university in that sense. Even so, something still smells off to me about the idea of a church having its own police force, but I’m having a hard time nailing down exactly what my objection is. Maybe I’m bothered not so much by the idea of a church _having_ its own police force as by the idea of it \*needing[/i[ its own police force—of a church being large enough, and its-own-separate-community enough—to justify a police force of its own. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=3)