# Should churches be able to have their own state-sanctioned police force? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959 "2017-03-11T22:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/41 "2017-03-13T02:27:26Z")
Apparently the resources of the police force in the nearby town are already spread thin as it is. Having their own police would cut down the officer response time. They also hire off-duty officers for church events. Having their own police would give them enough officers and not leave the town unprotected in an emergency. If the church’s police officers are held to the same standards as other police units and only enforce civil laws on the books, I don’t see a problem. And it’s a Presbyterian church. It’s not like some kind of indoctrinated cult with its own renegade security force. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/42 "2017-03-13T03:28:17Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > The alternative seems to be to force a small community that cannot afford to do so, to provide protection for a large church and congregation that are in their town. The church, rightly doesn’t want to impose that burden. At the same time wanting some protection in strange times. Sounds like the only crime addressing will likely be providing a presence, as a deterrent to attacks from a crazy person. > > Not really seeing the need to be taken aback. Just like a university campus bearing the costs of policing the student body and campus. Gee, if only there was some way the church could contribute to reduce the community’s financial burden, like maybe paying taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/43 "2017-03-13T03:49:05Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I can’t really “think about” those, because I am not familiar with Alabama law enough to know what police can do there that private security or regular civilians can’t, and the article doesn’t discuss the matter at all. What specifically are the powers that their police would gain from this that private security wouldn’t have, and what are you worried about? Private citizens in Alabama can already carry a gun and make a citizen’s arrest, so what people think of at a ‘first pass’ for a cop is already something they could do. The threshold of suspicion a cop needs to put you in handcuffs and question you is much lower than the requirements which have to be met to conduct a citizen’s arrest. Also, you can’t usually conduct a citizen’s arrest for misdemeanors, while a cop can certainly detain you or even arrest you for a misdemeanor. Police are intricately involved in the legal system. They’re government employees, subject to regulation and oversight by government agencies, led by an elected official. A “private” police force would be an outrage on its face, let alone a religious private security force. Again, I have to ask the question, “why?” Why do they want a police force instead of a private security force? All of the reasons they listed are perfectly within the scope of private security, so clearly they want police for a reason OTHER than what they’re willing to admit. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/44 "2017-03-13T03:51:47Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Apparently the resources of the police force in the nearby town are already spread thin as it is. Having their own police would cut down the officer response time. They also hire off-duty officers for church events. Having their own police would give them enough officers and not leave the town unprotected in an emergency. If the church’s police officers are held to the same standards as other police units and only enforce civil laws on the books, I don’t see a problem. And it’s a Presbyterian church. It’s not like some kind of indoctrinated cult with its own renegade security force. Well shit, I didn’t think of it like that! If you’d have just said, “Don’t worry, it’s fine. They’re Presbyterians, not some crazy religion” in the first place we could have avoided this whole argument. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/45 "2017-03-13T03:55:15Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > And they wouldn’t hire only believers as officers, they’d have open applications to the public. Is this accurate? My understanding of the law is that religious organizations can, in fact, insist on their employees all being of the same faith and denomination as the organization. [Religious Discrimination: Can a Church Hire/Fire Someone Based on Religious Beliefs? > [@](#): > > In most jurisdictions, this ability to discriminate on the basis of religion has been applied to mean not only for clergy and religious positions, but also for administrative and support positions. The church can insist that its janitors, kitchen help, secretaries, and all staff be Christian even though there is no religious-function directly related to those positions. More specifically, a church can insist that the employee be not only in agreement with the tenets of the general religion, but also with the particular denomination or belief-structure of the individual church. A Baptist church may insist that its employees be Baptists. ]([http://churchlawgroup.com/resources/blog/religious-discrimination-can-a-church-hirefire-someone-based-on-religious-beliefs/](http://churchlawgroup.com/resources/blog/religious-discrimination-can-a-church-hirefire-someone-based-on-religious-beliefs/)) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/46 "2017-03-13T05:38:55Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Apparently the resources of the police force in the nearby town are already spread thin as it is. Having their own police would cut down the officer response time. They also hire off-duty officers for church events. Having their own police would give them enough officers and not leave the town unprotected in an emergency. If the church’s police officers are held to the same standards as other police units and only enforce civil laws on the books, I don’t see a problem. And it’s a Presbyterian church. It’s not like some kind of indoctrinated cult with its own renegade security force. So it’s o.k. for _some_ churches, but not for others? Who decides? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/47 "2017-03-13T05:40:56Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Not necessarily, no. The University of Arizona here in Tucson has its own campus police force. The officers are all certified police officers and have all of the duties and responsibilities thereof, but they are hired and paid by the university. They do not come from the City of Tucson or Pima County or any other government entity. Isn’t the university a public institution? That would make the university itself the government entity. In my area ,there are two situations that are close to but not quite private police. One is when a store or other business hires police officers to work security through the police department and the other is when a non-law enforcement government agency (such as a public university,public hospital , parks dept or school system) has a special police force providing security within its facilities. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/48 "2017-03-13T05:48:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And they’re a government function, not a private function. They’re sworn officers, regulated and licensed by the police commission and the police chief. In Ohio, private universities can have their own police departments. They have police chiefs, but they are private employees of the university, not government functionaries assigned to supervise the private university officers. (This is not without problems. The Supreme Court only ruled that they were subject to public records laws in 2015. Until then, their arrest records were secret.) ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/49 "2017-03-13T11:41:32Z")
Yes I’m so afraid of private police forces who kill and hurt at a much lower rate than govt police, can be held accountable by third parties, and lack the funding for swat raids. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/50 "2017-03-13T12:04:19Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes I’m so afraid of private police forces who kill and hurt at a much lower rate than govt police, can be held accountable by third parties, and lack the funding for swat raids. And you have no concern that disbelievers might receive a different “justice” from believers? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/51 "2017-03-13T13:29:56Z")
I’m not **WillFarnaby** , but since there doesn’t seem to be anything to the concern except “religion is icky”, no. If the principle is “no organization can be allowed to manage their own security because they might abuse it”, that’s pretty silly. If the principle is “no religious organization can be allowed to manage their own security because they might abuse it”, that’s silly and a violation of the First Amendment. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/52 "2017-03-13T13:39:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If the principle is “no organization can be allowed to manage their own security because they might abuse it”, that’s pretty silly. If the principle is “no religious organization can be allowed to manage their own security because they might abuse it”, that’s silly and a violation of the First Amendment. It’s not that, because many people are asking why they specifically need police officers as opposed to security guards. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/53 "2017-03-13T13:53:16Z")
Um, so that those charged with enforcement, both know and _are required to_ follow the law ? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/54 "2017-03-13T14:05:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > It’s not that, because many people are asking why they specifically need police officers as opposed to security guards. Like universities do? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/55 "2017-03-13T14:12:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not **WillFarnaby** , but since there doesn’t seem to be anything to the concern except “religion is icky”, no. Yep, that’s what post #45 was concerned about. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/56 "2017-03-13T14:15:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you have no concern that disbelievers might receive a different “justice” from believers? No. The private force is subject to laws against the initiation of force. The problem with govt police is that they are not subject to laws against the initiation of force in the same way the rest of the public is subject to them. They can intrude onto your property, shoot your dog, seize your property, and assault your family. When is the last time a private police force violated rights in ways govt police forces routinely violate them? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/57 "2017-03-13T14:25:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No. The private force is subject to laws against the initiation of force. The problem with govt police is that they are not subject to laws against the initiation of force in the same way the rest of the public is subject to them. They can intrude onto your property, shoot your dog, seize your property, and assault your family. When is the last time a private police force violated rights in ways govt police forces routinely violate them? I don’t know-I’d have to see the stats for one compared to the other. Where could I find these going back about ten years or so? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/58 "2017-03-13T14:28:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Like universities do? > > Regards, > Shodan We’ve already discussed that. Do try to keep up. Universities are state-sanctioned. Churches are not. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/59 "2017-03-13T14:33:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The obvious problem is that a priest would be in charge of a government sanctioned police department. Yes, this is as obvious a conflict of the separation of church and state as you could imagine. Head of nail, meet hammer. There it is. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/60 "2017-03-13T14:33:47Z")
This is nothing to worry about. And I’m sure those in favor of this would be perfectly fine with a local mosque doing the same thing. Plus it’ll be helpful if you ever find a [dead bishop on the landing](http://www.montypython.net/scripts/bishop.php). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=4)