# Should churches be able to have their own state-sanctioned police force? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959 "2017-03-11T22:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/61 "2017-03-13T14:36:55Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > We’ve already discussed that. Do try to keep up. > > Universities are state-sanctioned. Churches are not. That’s begging the question. If the state is allowing one kind of non-profit institution to have its own police but not a religious one, that’s a violation of the First Amendment. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/62 "2017-03-13T14:41:05Z")
I’d like to see **Bricker** ’s take on this. I strongly suspect that you’re mistaken, **Shodan**. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/63 "2017-03-13T14:41:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s begging the question. If the state is allowing one kind of non-profit institution to have its own police but not a religious one, that’s a violation of the First Amendment. Because trying to separate Church from State would be downright unconstitutional, right? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/64 "2017-03-13T14:47:10Z")
Treating non-profits the same is not a violation of church and state. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/65 "2017-03-13T16:13:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s begging the question. If the state is allowing one kind of non-profit institution to have its own police but not a religious one, that’s a violation of the First Amendment. > > Regards, > Shodan Ok, I’ll bite: How is having a police force a first amendment issue? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/66 "2017-03-13T16:34:09Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Universities are state-sanctioned. Churches are not. What does state-sanctioned mean in this context? Boston University, a private institution, has a police force. > **[Boston University Police Department](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_University_Police_Department)** > > The Boston University Police Department (BUPD) is the primary law-enforcement agency of Boston University and provides services to more than 41,000 students, faculty, and staff on 132 acres (0.53 km2) of University property and surrounding streets. Its headquarters are located at 32 Harry Agganis Way adjacent to Nickerson Field, in what was once the Braves Field ticket office. > The BUPD was created through an act of legislation in October 1947. > In 2005 a former deputy chief sued the university ... > [@](#): > > All BUPD police are sworn “special State Police officers” and have full arrest authority on Boston University property and adjoining streets. The authority of the BUPD is derived from chapter 22C, section 63 of the General Laws of Massachusetts. Harvard and MIT have similar arrangements although the details may be different. All are private universities. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/67 "2017-03-13T17:02:02Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Would they send out a SWAT team if someone reported that a teen-aged kid was spankin’ it? Or anything on that continuum? Police powers do not expand because the cops are religious. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/68 "2017-03-13T17:03:11Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > What does state-sanctioned mean in this context? Boston University, a private institution, has a police force. > > [Boston University Police Department - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_University_Police_Department) > Harvard and MIT have similar arrangements although the details may be different. All are private universities. Not only private colleges, but religious colleges (such as Georgetown and Notre Dame) have their own police departments. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/69 "2017-03-13T17:11:39Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > For those wondering why they don’t just hire a security firm or contract from a local police force, the article mentions this ttidbit: This is also why you don’t see a shit ton of college students in jail for smoking pot. Campus police bust people with pot all the time but they never seem to send anyone to jail for it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/70 "2017-03-13T17:13:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Ok, I’ll bite: How is having a police force a first amendment issue? If other non-profits like private universities can have their own security, but religious organizations can’t, that’s a First Amendment issue. The government may not treat religious organizations better than other organizations. They also may not treat them worse. There are, in other words, two clauses in the First that refer to religion. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/71 "2017-03-13T17:15:28Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > The alternative seems to be to force a small community that cannot afford to do so, to provide protection for a large church and congregation that are in their town. The church, rightly doesn’t want to impose that burden. At the same time wanting some protection in strange times. Sounds like the only crime addressing will likely be providing a presence, as a deterrent to attacks from a crazy person. > > Not really seeing the need to be taken aback. Just like a university campus bearing the costs of policing the student body and campus. The church police is likely to be congregants who undergo training and don’t get paid much if at all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/72 "2017-03-13T17:20:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The church police is likely to be congregants who undergo training and don’t get paid much if at all. Can you point out a religious college or university that operates this way with their in-house police force? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/73 "2017-03-13T17:22:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If other non-profits like private universities can have their own security, but religious organizations can’t, that’s a First Amendment issue.The government may not treat religious organizations better than other organizations. They also may not treat them worse. There are, in other words, two clauses in the First that refer to religion. Regards,Shodan They can treat them differently without violating the first amendment. Universities are subjected to scrutiny and laws directed at them that would never be done to churches. Could title IX be struck down because it only applies to schools? First amendment! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/74 "2017-03-13T17:29:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If other non-profits like private universities can have their own security, but religious organizations can’t, that’s a First Amendment issue. > > The government may not treat religious organizations better than other organizations. They also may not treat them worse. There are, in other words, two clauses in the First that refer to religion. > > Regards, > Shodan Forbidding churches from having a police force does not impede the exercise of religion. We forbid churches from being too political. Political speech combined with religious speech seems like a slam dunk for the first amendment but its not. I think we could deny a church the ability to have their own police department without running afoul of the first amendment. I also think we could permit a church to have its own police department without running afoul of the first amendment. I don’t know how relevant people would find this but churches are required to be withholding agents for payroll taxes. They are effectively acting on behalf of the government to collect taxes. Is that relevant at all to the conversation? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/75 "2017-03-13T17:37:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you point out a religious college or university that operates this way with their in-house police force? No but can you point me to a church run police force? I can certainly point you to churches where the security team is all congregants. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/76 "2017-03-13T17:40:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No but can you point me to a church run police force? > > I can certainly point you to churches where the security team is all congregants. But we are talking about religious universities in this case-universities run by paid personnel, from the lowliest janitor to the University Prez. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/77 "2017-03-13T17:44:01Z")
Are there any commuter colleges with their own police forces? IM(very limited)E with campus police forces - the campus was, in some ways, almost a city. People lived there, they ate on campus, slept on campus, worked on campus, spent their free time on campus, etc. The college was its own community and kind of a bubble. It made sense to have an internal police force. So, do commuter colleges that are less of a mini-city and more of a largish office park have their own police forces? Or do they rely on the city’s police force? I will admit that something about a church with a police force rubs me the wrong way. Security guards are fine and I can’t understand why they’re not sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/78 "2017-03-13T17:47:07Z")
One thing is that a lot of the non-governmental police force requirements center around the officers being duly licensed LEOs in their particular states. So they will have had to attend a police academy or whatever other training is required in their state and have undergone whatever vetting and certification that is required. Maybe they’re congregants, maybe they’re not, but either way, if it’s a proper police force, they’re more than likely going to be fully licensed LEOs. Second, the courts will still be the usual city, county and state courts, and without a jail, there’s not too much danger that religiously influenced arrests will happen- what are they going to do- drag some guy down to county because he’s an atheist? That’ll probably happen exactly one time, that guy will be turned loose promptly, and the state/county will come down on the church police force like a ton of bricks. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/79 "2017-03-13T17:57:07Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Universities are state-sanctioned and state licensed. …no not even close to being true, when talking about private universities ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/80 "2017-03-13T17:59:54Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And they’re a government function, not a private function. They’re sworn officers, yes > [@](#): > > regulated and licensed by the police commission and the police chief. no they’re organizationally independent of any municipal police force It’s plain that you don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about, so why are you pretending that you do? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=5)