# Should churches be able to have their own state-sanctioned police force? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959 "2017-03-11T22:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/101 "2017-03-13T22:02:51Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > What about the opposite situation? Let’s say someone does something that would get them arrested by local police but the church police look the other way, such as the drug bust mentioned earlier. What would be your reaction to that situation? He’d probably say that’s no more likely or scary than a regular Alabama sheriff letting his cousins go free from a drug bust. Maybe unlike others arguing against, I don’t have any particular worry about abuse. However, a head priest of an Alabama church definitely has influence and power over his people very different from a mayor or university president, so I would say some concern isn’t unwarranted. My main problems are that I don’t really love the idea of a bunch of police forces run by undemocratic organizations church or not and even the slightest breach of the church and state wall. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/102 "2017-03-13T22:54:18Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > In Ohio, private universities can have their own police departments. They have police chiefs, but they are private employees of the university, not government functionaries assigned to supervise the private university officers. . . . As noted, a university is a public institution. Also, the school police services are regulated the same as other police departments. The officers are not “private citizens” but fully licensed policemen. Private security guards are also regulated and licensed, but they are not actual policemen. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/103 "2017-03-13T23:24:40Z")
I would be a bit concerned over where this new police force would have jurisdiction. I’m not so worried if they are required to uphold all existing laws, and only on the church campus. But what happens if parishioners decide that there isn’t enough of a police presence near their homes and businesses? Could they try to extend the jurisdiction to include properties owned by parishioners? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/104 "2017-03-13T23:38:04Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > What about the opposite situation? Let’s say someone does something that would get them arrested by local police but the church police look the other way, such as the drug bust mentioned earlier. What would be your reaction to that situation? Exactly the same reaction I have when I read about university campus gang rapes … reported to campus security and nothing is done about it … just disbanding campus security is the _wrong_ direction to go … What happened to little boys in the Penn State shower room is just as evil as if it occurred in a church broom closet … I don’t think anyone believes Joe Paterno deserves a pass because he’s a great football coach, and Pastor Smith doesn’t because he’s a cleric … The case you need to make is why having police officers on church grounds makes crimes _more_ likely to happen … or that _not_ having Church police is proof against criminal activity … … or do you think there’s not a single city police officer who will think twice about arresting the Mayor’s son for drug dealing? ETA: Hiring the Hell’s Angels for security at a rock concert for all the beer they can drink was, in hindsight, maybe not a good idea … ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/105 "2017-03-14T00:06:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > As noted, a university is a public institution. A private university is not a public institution. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Also, the school police services are regulated the same as other police departments. So, pretty much just self-regulation. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/106 "2017-03-14T00:24:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > As noted, a university is a public institution. Except. When. They’re. Not. Seriously, you keep repeating this point, but it’s not always true. Many people have pointed this out to you, and yet you keep pretending like it’s always the case. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/107 "2017-03-14T00:38:41Z")
Anyone have a specific example of a private university with a police department? I don’t see one recently and don’t want Rio read back too far looking for just that. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/108 "2017-03-14T00:40:32Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Anyone have a specific example of a private university with a police department? [Yes](https://www.ben.edu/police/) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/109 "2017-03-14T00:44:45Z")
If they are actually “police” then they are public officials. If they are not actually “police,” then I don’t give a shit. Are you thinking, perhaps, of actual police officers moonlighting as security personnel? They do that, and retain some of their official powers (but not all.) ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/110 "2017-03-14T00:45:50Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Except. When. They’re. Not. > > Seriously, you keep repeating this point, but it’s not always true. Many people have pointed this out to you, and yet you keep pretending like it’s always the case. Why? The point is that a university is allowed to have campus security whether they’re state-sanctioned or not … so having campus security has no relationship to being sanctioned … so we’re trying to take the step that allowing churches to have security also has no relationship to state-sanctioning … I think the same applies to police officers … there’s nothing intrinsic to being a church that leads to corruption … ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/111 "2017-03-14T00:46:05Z")
From **Thudlow Boink** ’s link: “Benedictine University Police employ Illinois certified police officers.” Moonlighting cops, but not a “private police force.” ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/112 "2017-03-14T00:49:54Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > From **Thudlow Boink** ’s link: “Benedictine University Police employ Illinois certified police officers.” > > Moonlighting cops, but not a “private police force.” That does not indicate that anybody is “moonlighting.” ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/113 "2017-03-14T00:57:04Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > From **Thudlow Boink** ’s link: “Benedictine University Police employ Illinois certified police officers.” > > Moonlighting cops, but not a “private police force.” No, they’re not “moonlighting.” They’re not employees of any municipal or state body. They have the same powers because they’re certified in the same way as any other police officer in the state; they’re simply employed by a private rather than public institution. Many of them may indeed have worked for municipal police forces _in the past_ (the first paragraph certainly suggests as much) but they don’t anymore–the university’s police force is independent and operated by the university. You really shouldn’t spout off on things you have no knowledge of. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/114 "2017-03-14T00:57:26Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > That does not indicate that anybody is “moonlighting.” I got the same impression, though. I felt like they were dancing around something. Saying that the officers have full arrest powers, etc. The question actually is, is that “police department” an actual accredited LEA, or a security force made up of otherwise-commissioned police officers whose head is called a “Chief.” ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/115 "2017-03-14T00:57:53Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > That does not indicate that anybody is “moonlighting.” Yeah, not as I interpreted it. From my link, if you click on [Police Authority](https://www.ben.edu/police/authority.cfm): > [@](#): > > Benedictine University Police draws its authority from the Illinois Private College Campus Police Act, which establishes authority for Private Colleges and Universities to create a police department. I’m not sure exactly what the “Illinois Private College Campus Police Act” says, or whether other states have similar provisions. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/116 "2017-03-14T01:00:33Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Yeah, not as I interpreted it. > > From my link, if you click on [Police Authority](https://www.ben.edu/police/authority.cfm): > I’m not sure exactly what the “Illinois Private College Campus Police Act” says, or whether other states have similar provisions. If you read down, it appears to excerpt it: “Members of the campus police department shall have the powers of municipal peace officers and county sheriffs, including the power to make arrests under the circumstances prescribed in Section 107-2 of the Code of Criminal Procedure of 1963, as amended, for violations of state statutes, municipal or county ordinances. Campus Police Officers also have authority and jurisdiction to enforce traffic laws on roadways contiguous to the University or College.” ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/117 "2017-03-14T02:10:36Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > The question actually is, is that “police department” an actual accredited LEA, or a security force made up of otherwise-commissioned police officers whose head is called a “Chief.” Yes. In Massachusetts BU, MIT, and Harvard each have full police departments with Police Chiefs, full accredited by the state. There are a few private hospitals like St Anne’s in Fall River, Beth Israel Deaconess in Boston, and St Vincent’s in Worcester that have some sort of police but I think they’re Special Police that may or may not have an actual department with Chief. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/118 "2017-03-14T03:14:19Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Yes. In Massachusetts BU, MIT, and Harvard each have full police departments with Police Chiefs, full accredited by the state. > > There are a few private hospitals like St Anne’s in Fall River, Beth Israel Deaconess in Boston, and St Vincent’s in Worcester that have some sort of police but I think they’re Special Police that may or may not have an actual department with Chief. That’s interesting; in Missouri the only schools with an actual PD are state schools, and the officers are state law enforcement officers. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/119 "2017-03-14T13:56:43Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Anyone have a specific example of a private university with a police department? I don’t see one recently and don’t want Rio read back too far looking for just that. Not that they’re apparently very useful, but: [https://www.baylor.edu/dps/index.php?id=99379](https://www.baylor.edu/dps/index.php?id=99379) ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/120 "2017-03-14T13:58:34Z")
Here’s some other possibly relevant info. In order to receive criminal justice information or criminal history record information, an agency must be assigned an originating agency identifier (ORI) by the FBI. Requirements for being assigned an ORI are [here](http://www.rowancountync.gov/Portals/0/Government/Departments/Telecommunications/intranet/ncic/ORI.htm) Most relevant portion: > [@](#): > > 1. A nongovernmental railroad or campus police department is one which performs the administration of criminal justice and has arrest powers pursuant to a state statute which allocates a substantial part of its annual budget to the administration of justice as defined by the Department of Justice Regulations on Criminal Justice Information Systems (28 CFR, Part 20, Subpart A) and which meets training requirements established by law or ordinance for law enforcement officers. These agencies are assigned an ORI ending with the alphabetic character E. No provision either here or in the CFR for churches to have their own police force 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=7)