# Should churches be able to have their own state-sanctioned police force? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959 "2017-03-11T22:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/121 "2017-03-14T14:14:02Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > [The bill isn’t for churches though. It’s for a church.](http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/ALISON/SearchableInstruments/2017RS/PrintFiles/HB180-int.pdf) This is being glossed over because we are arguing the general case but it’s what makes this law so obviously unconstitutional. If they were passing legislation similar to the above mentioned Illinois campus police act that enabled any church to start a police force then maybe some of these arguments defending it would work (I still doubt it). But they are clearly favouring one church. If they made a more general law though, I have a good idea of where the Scientologists and Moonies are going to move their headquarters to. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/122 "2017-03-14T14:19:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If they were passing legislation similar to the above mentioned Illinois campus police act that enabled any church to start a police force then maybe some of these arguments defending it would work (I still doubt it). Was going to add in my above but missed the window…even if that state passed legislation to allow that church, or even all churches in that state, to create a police department, they would be hobbled by the inability to access federal (and probably, by extension, state) criminal justice systems. That would require a change in federal law. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/123 "2017-03-14T14:26:37Z")
I can’t be sure. It might just take a change of a definition in the regulations rather than an actual change in law. Just have “campus police” include religious campuses. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/124 "2017-03-14T14:34:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I can’t be sure. It might just take a change of a definition in the regulations rather than an actual change in law. Just have “campus police” include religious campuses. All churches/religious institutions, or just ones of a certain size or above? Is there a legal definition of “campus”, because I’ve heard references to “Nike Campus” referring to their large complex. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/125 "2017-03-14T14:46:35Z")
Well, that’s what I don’t know: where and exactly how “campus police” is defined. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/126 "2017-03-14T15:02:35Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well, that’s what I don’t know: where and exactly how “campus police” is defined. Or “railroad” for that matter. I want to know what would keep Grand Funk Railroad from forming their own police force. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/127 "2017-03-14T15:11:16Z")
Churches operate within our system of counties and cities. The membership pays appropriate taxes for police protection. What political logic would accept churches having their own police force? Should other widespread organizations like the Masons do the same thing? If this becomes a reality will the membership get tax relief because they provide their own education and police? Perhaps the members should incorporate as a separate city. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/128 "2017-03-14T15:34:54Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Churches operate within our system of counties and cities. The membership pays appropriate taxes for police protection. So do colleges and universities. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/129 "2017-03-14T15:38:56Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Churches operate within our system of counties and cities. The membership pays appropriate taxes for police protection. Which they would continue to do if they had their own police. I have not seen any suggestion that the membership wants to replace the police - just supplement it with their own force. > [@](#): > > What political logic would accept churches having their own police force? The same political logic that says we accept private universities having their own police force, or shopping malls hiring off-duty police, or banks having security guards. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/130 "2017-03-14T15:42:04Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > So do colleges and universities. School campus police cannot discriminate when it comes to sex, race _or religious preference_. Would the church police have to follow these rules, or would they be allowed to recruit “in-house”? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/131 "2017-03-14T15:47:09Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Or “railroad” for that matter. I want to know what would keep Grand Funk Railroad from forming their own police force. I expect Sting would prevent it somehow. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/132 "2017-03-14T16:19:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The same political logic that says we accept private universities having their own police force, or shopping malls hiring off-duty police, or banks having security guards. > > Regards, > Shodan So university police (which became common during the heightened public yourh protests in the 60’s and 70’s), the use of off-duty police security (which varies wildly even between municipalities) and banks having guards (going on since the dawn of banks) all have the same political logic as the never-happened-before church police? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/133 "2017-03-14T16:28:25Z")
Yes. Religious organizations have the same rights as everyone else. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/134 "2017-03-14T16:32:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes. Religious organizations have the same rights as everyone else. > > Regards, > Shodan Exactly. Just like banks, they can hire security guards or off-duty police officers. There is no right to your own police department. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/135 "2017-03-14T16:33:48Z")
I have the right to my own private police force? Cool! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/136 "2017-03-14T16:36:48Z")
IIRC you are security for a trucking firm. Did you think you did not have the right to your job? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/137 "2017-03-14T16:37:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > School campus police cannot discriminate when it comes to sex, race _or religious preference_. Would the church police have to follow these rules, or would they be allowed to recruit “in-house”? I tried to look up the Federal law concerning Equal Employment Opportunity in this case and came up with nothing … the government can never take religious preference into account when hiring (Title VII (?)) … but I couldn’t find this restriction for private institutions … apparently the Catholic Church can require any new priests hired to be Catholic … How this applies to a Church Police Department may well have to be answered in the courts … or I just failed to find the appropriate laws (more than likely) … ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/138 "2017-03-14T16:38:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > IIRC you are security for a trucking firm. Did you think you did not have the right to your job? > > Regards, > Shodan I am not a police officer. _I_ know what the difference is. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/139 "2017-03-14T17:14:38Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Anyways, here is a Vox article on why universities had private police forces (in 2015, but still would apply, I think): > > [Why nearly all colleges have an armed police force - Vox](http://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9069841/university-of-cincinnati-police) > > [QUOTE=Vox] > College presidents began to lobby state legislatures for the right to create their own police departments, where officers would have a constant presence and become part of the campus community rather than being seen as “some kind of invading army” when something went wrong, Sloan said. > > “It doesn’t look good to have county sheriffs or local police officers patrolling the campus,” he said. “It’s far better to have your own department, your own officers who can be trained appropriately, because this is somewhat of a different setting.” I think that a similar justification can apply for this church. In addition, it wants to have a decided force on its campus rather than straining the local town’s police force, which also would be better for the locality, I’d imagine. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I wanted to respond to this since you addressed my question directly. I have trouble believing a wealthy Presbyterian church is a very distinct community from its surrounding affluent Burmingham suburb. Not compared to a mass of 18-25 yr olds entering the adult world plopped in the middle of a working city. It’s certainly not a justification that the proponents in the state legislature are making. All I saw in the article was “why not?” and “we want more security”. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/140 "2017-03-14T17:53:46Z")
I wonder how much of it comes from the fact that they run 2 private schools with 2000 students. It very well may be that they’re coming at it from the same angle that many public school districts approach it from (many of whom have their own police departments around here). I seriously doubt it’s Sunday morning crowd control that’s driving the desire for their own police dept. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=8)