# Should churches be able to have their own state-sanctioned police force? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959 "2017-03-11T22:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/161 "2017-03-15T00:44:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The nomenclature is irrelevant. They are churches with head preachers. A Catholic priest is a bit more than a “head preacher”. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/162 "2017-03-15T00:49:37Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Am I getting whooshed here. At least three non-RC denominations I know of have priests. > > This one I don’t know about. Is that really the case? Which ones, please? Scientology is a religion in name only because there is no God involved. Perhaps I should rephrase and say that they dont have traditional services. The highest power in Scientology is money. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/163 "2017-03-15T01:14:03Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > This one I don’t know about. Is that really the case? No. They may be non-traditional in some way but the Scientology “locator” part of their website says “find a church, mission, community center or Ideal org near you”. The wiki page on them says they have services too though it doesn’t seem an important part of the practice. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/164 "2017-03-15T01:15:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > A Catholic priest is a bit more than a “head preacher”. Sometimes less. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/165 "2017-03-15T01:26:43Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No. They may be non-traditional in some way but the Scientology “locator” part of their website says “find a church, mission, community center or Ideal org near you”. The wiki page on them says they have services too though it doesn’t seem an important part of the practice. They dont have what would be considered a service. They dont believe in a God. They only claim being a religion because of the tax break. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/166 "2017-03-15T01:33:26Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > They dont have what would be considered a service. They dont believe in a God. They only claim being a religion because of the tax break. So? They still deserve a police department as much as the railroads! First Amendment! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/167 "2017-03-15T02:50:05Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I would think having a very large organization wanting a formal sanctioned police force would be preferable to a private unsanctioned force because the standards and scrutiny will be higher. Would you rather have them have a regular police force; or would these type protecters be better? [Fruit of Islam - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_Islam) Do you not think that the Nation of Islam will send some of those Fruits to police academy as the core of their new Temple police departments? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/168 "2017-03-15T02:53:17Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > While this may seem like no big deal when it’s a Presbyterian minister as the priest in charge, I wonder if you would all be so chill when the Moonies and Scientologists start up their police departments. It’s not like they’d be empowered to just make up their own laws, you know. They’d be bound by the same operational restrictions as regular police, they couldn’t make arrests without probable cause any more than anyone else, and the same prosecutors would be making the decisions to charge, and they’d be tried in the same courts, etc. I mean, I think this is a bad idea for other reasons, but it’s not like you’d be re-creating the fucking Inquisition. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/169 "2017-03-15T02:55:44Z")
I never suggested anything of the sort. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/170 "2017-03-15T03:16:23Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > It’s not like they’d be empowered to just make up their own laws, you know. They’d be bound by the same operational restrictions as regular police, they couldn’t make arrests without probable cause any more than anyone else, and the same prosecutors would be making the decisions to charge, and they’d be tried in the same courts, etc. > > I mean, I think this is a bad idea for other reasons, but it’s not like you’d be re-creating the fucking Inquisition. Would they be eligible for that military surplus deal? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/171 "2017-03-15T04:55:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I never suggested anything of the sort. …then what other concern would there be that would make a Unification or Scientology police force more troublesome than one attached to a more mainstream religious tradition? Innuendo is not argumentation. If you have some specific concern, state it outright; don’t make us try to read your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/172 "2017-03-15T04:58:24Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Which ones, please? Episcopalian Church Eastern Orthodox Community of Christ Latter-day Saints Some Japanese Buddhists Shall I go on? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/173 "2017-03-15T05:22:22Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Episcopalian Church > Eastern Orthodox > Community of Christ > Latter-day Saints > Some Japanese Buddhists > > Shall I go on? Not run of the mill Prodies, are they? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/174 "2017-03-15T06:28:18Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Not run of the mill Prodies, are they? 😉 Doesn’t matter, now does it? Your assertion was that only the Roman Catholic Church has priests. There is even one example provided for a faith that does not postulate deity but still has priests. Oh, and the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States has deacons, priests, bishops, and archbishops. And they’re all protestant. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/175 "2017-03-15T07:52:06Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Or “railroad” for that matter. I want to know what would keep Grand Funk Railroad from forming their own police force. Nothing, but they could only arrest suspects that were caught in the act. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/176 "2017-03-15T11:43:39Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > …then what other concern would there be that would make a Unification or Scientology police force more troublesome than one attached to a more mainstream religious tradition? > > Innuendo is not argumentation. If you have some specific concern, state it outright; don’t make us try to read your mind. Police power can be abused and some entities that can legally call themselves a religion are full of crooks and frauds. And they don’t have to be enforcing religious views or making up their own law books to be bad news. We definitely don’t want to open the can of worms that religious compounds can have their own police. We shouldn’t be expanding privately run police departments at all, but I find going in this direction particularly bad. Not because religion is “icky” but because of the principle of separation of church and state should be respected even when we can maybe sneak a change like this past the courts. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/177 "2017-03-15T12:47:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Nothing, but they could only arrest suspects that were caught in the act. Or those who sing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/178 "2017-03-15T12:52:21Z")
There is no violation of the principle of separation, as has been explained repeatedly. And since you state that the possibility of abuse isn’t what you object to, nor making up new law books, nor the possible presence of crooks and fraud, and since those objections don’t disqualify private organizations from having their own police force, I can see no reason besides “religion is icky” to prevent this church from doing what other private organizations have done. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/179 "2017-03-15T14:28:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There is no violation of the principle of separation, as has been explained repeatedly. And since you state that the possibility of abuse isn’t what you object to, nor making up new law books, nor the possible presence of crooks and fraud, and since those objections don’t disqualify private organizations from having their own police force, I can see no reason besides “religion is icky” to prevent this church from doing what other private organizations have done. > > Regards, > Shodan You’ve said this before…which means you are _still_ not acknowledging any of the concerns and questions brought up in this thread. edited to add: It’s rather fucking obvious that this is a special case, since they created a special bill that covers only this one special church. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959/180 "2017-03-15T14:51:27Z")
A couple of points … Some of the posters here have expressed concern about this legislative bill allowing a _specific_ Church to have their own police … I don’t know about Alabama law, but here in Oregon this is always the case, any city police department requires _specific_ approval by the State legislature … and this request is included in the application for incorporation … we can’t just say “we a city now so we can have our own police” … this all has to be approved by the legislature on a case-by-case basis … Second, I think way too much is being made of the constitution issues … courts generally don’t declare laws unconstitutional on a willy-nilly basis and are typically loath to do so … the legislature is privileged to write the bills, the governor is privileged to sigh these bills into law … and the bill in question here in no way states that Briarwood is to become the Official Church of the State of Alabama … This all boils down to “churches are icky” … and somehow priests are more corrupt than politicians … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-able-to-have-their-own-state-sanctioned-police-force/781959.md?page=10)