# Should churches be tax-exempt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253 "2005-11-09T18:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/41 "2005-11-09T21:59:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I never said they have no right to complain. > > Well, your scenario is silly because I am in the vast majority in this particular case. However, I would not support this government if it repealed the first amendment. God trumps the state. > > **Debaser** I think you are going about it backasswards. It’s not that churches SHOULD pay property taxes because other people do. It’s that other people shouldn’t be paying property taxes. As **Martin Hyde** pointed out. One is not receiving anything for their property value unless receiving equity or upon sale, at which point they are taxed for that value. It’s not fair to tax someone based upon the fickle nature of the real estate market. > > This argument runs very deeply into this society, and I feel like the anti-tax-exempt camp is looking at too shallowly. > > Erek Then why aren’t you making this argument instead of rah-rahing about how great churches are? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/42 "2005-11-09T21:59:40Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > What benefit do churches provide me ? Attracting people who might burn down my house, because the 900 foot tall Jesus told them too ? Huh? As for benefits, they give aid to victims of hurricanes, they minister to the sick in third world countries, they run homeless shelters, they help drug addicts get off of drugs, they give free space to AA and NA meetings. If you world is simply all about you, then I simply don’t care about what benefit you receive. If you are incapable of seeing social benefits that don’t directly benefit you, then there’s not a whole lot we have to talk about. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/43 "2005-11-09T22:01:12Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Besides you COULD form a church, you choose not to. It is not unfairly benefitting someone in a way that you do not benefit. Can I form an openly nonsecular organization which provides the same community benefits but is immune from property tax? Of what special nature are religious institutions that they deserve this particular privledge? > [@mswas](#): > > What shareholders are making a profit from church revenue? Where is the churches revenue stream coming from? One can point to any number of churches whose principals are certainly not redistributing their wealth to charitable needs and whose enjoy a lifestyle of excess. Even those that do not; again, what special quality have they over, say, the Humane Society or a soup kitchen? > [@mswas](#): > > Property taxes are the least fair because one loses their property if they cannot afford to pay them, unlike Income taxes or Sales taxes, there is no way to stop using your property. If you lose your job you don’t pay income taxes, and you stop buying as many things so you pay lower sales tax. Again, a specious argument; if you don’t pay sales taxes, you can’t (legally) purchase goods. If you don’t pay income tax, the goverment can lien and garnish wages; indeed, for federal and state taxes most employers are required to withhold. Property tax is no more unfair, in the sense of payment under duress, than any other form of taxation, and its distribution–payment for services and infrastructure provided to those properties–is at least levied on those most likely to make use of them. > [@mswas](#): > > Do you think that firehouses, police stations, schools and libraries should have to pay property tax? There is a fine distinction here in terms of public institutions. In this case property tax pays for those institutions. Churches are also a form of pubilc institution, but they are not subsidized by the government, they simply are not taxed. Another specious argument; firehouses, police stations, et al are municipal properties supported by taxes, including property taxes; insisting that they “pay themselves” is an absurd recursion. Churches are not a “public instution” in the sense that municipal services are, and to conflate them is an attempt to bury the issue at hand, i.e. why do churches get special privledge? There’s a coffeehouse I frequent. I sit there and read; Occasionally, I talk to someone about some aspect of politics, philosophy, or science. Sometimes they have music, or poetry readings, or a speaker on some topic. While it is a “for profit” business the “profit” angle is a nebulous abstraction; I’m morally certain that the owners clear just enough to keep themselves in crackers and pay the bills. This place is a community center of sorts; the provide wireless access, a comfortable place to sit, and give left-over food to homeless at closing. Why shouldn’t this qualify it for a property tax exemption? If we talked about six foot tall invisible rabbits and worshipped pink unicorns would that qualify it to avoid tax obligations? From whence comes the distinction? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/44 "2005-11-09T22:01:34Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Then why aren’t you making this argument instead of rah-rahing about how great churches are? Ok, I’ll spell it out out for the understanding impaired. B E C A U S E I T H I N K T H A T I N D I R E C T S O C I A L B E N E F I T S A R E P A R T O F T H E A R G U M E N T. Thanks, Erek ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/45 "2005-11-09T22:05:55Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Huh? Religious = irrational, as far as I’m concerned. The specific reference was to Oral Roberts. I don’t want a bunch of untreated mentally unstable people living near me. > [@mswas](#): > > As for benefits, they give aid to victims of hurricanes, they minister to the sick in third world countries, they run homeless shelters, they help drug addicts get off of drugs, they give free space to AA and NA meetings. And a secular organization could do it better, I’m sure. > [@mswas](#): > > If you world is simply all about you, then I simply don’t care about what benefit you receive. If you are incapable of seeing social benefits that don’t directly benefit you, then there’s not a whole lot we have to talk about. > > Erek I never claimed the world is all about me, you started that line of arguement with your library speech. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/46 "2005-11-09T22:07:55Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Can I form an openly nonsecular organization which provides the same community benefits but is immune from property tax? Of what special nature are religious institutions that they deserve this particular privledge? Yes it’s called a non-profit corporation 501©3 > [@](#): > > One can point to any number of churches whose principals are certainly not redistributing their wealth to charitable needs and whose enjoy a lifestyle of excess. Even those that do not; again, what special quality have they over, say, the Humane Society or a soup kitchen? Let’s crucify everyone for the actions of a few!!! Also the Humane Society and Soup Kitchens are probably 501©3 corporations. > [@](#): > > Again, a specious argument; if you don’t pay sales taxes, you can’t (legally) purchase goods. If you don’t pay income tax, the goverment can lien and garnish wages; indeed, for federal and state taxes most employers are required to withhold. Property tax is no more unfair, in the sense of payment under duress, than any other form of taxation, and its distribution–payment for services and infrastructure provided to those properties–is at least levied on those most likely to make use of them. Sales tax and income tax are a tax on an actual transaction not a possible transaction. > [@](#): > > Another specious argument; firehouses, police stations, et al are municipal properties supported by taxes, including property taxes; insisting that they “pay themselves” is an absurd recursion. Churches are not a “public instution” in the sense that municipal services are, and to conflate them is an attempt to bury the issue at hand, i.e. why do churches get special privledge? The church is providing a non-governmental public service. > [@](#): > > There’s a coffeehouse I frequent. I sit there and read; Occasionally, I talk to someone about some aspect of politics, philosophy, or science. Sometimes they have music, or poetry readings, or a speaker on some topic. While it is a “for profit” business the “profit” angle is a nebulous abstraction; I’m morally certain that the owners clear just enough to keep themselves in crackers and pay the bills. This place is a community center of sorts; the provide wireless access, a comfortable place to sit, and give left-over food to homeless at closing. Why shouldn’t this qualify it for a property tax exemption? If we talked about six foot tall invisible rabbits and worshipped pink unicorns would that qualify it to avoid tax obligations? From whence comes the distinction? The coffeehouse is a for profit corporation with physical merchandise, the store owners are not making much money because of the way they are running their business. As Starbucks has shown, one can become exhorbitantly wealthy running a coffee shop. The owners are shareholders. There are no shareholders in a church, nor any monetary profit. Do you really not understand what seperates a non-profit institution from a for-profit corporation? Erek ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/47 "2005-11-09T22:09:21Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Ok, I’ll spell it out out for the understanding impaired. > > B E C A U S E I T H I N K T H A T I N D I R E C T S O C I A L B E N E F I T S A R E P A R T O F T H E A R G U M E N T. > > Thanks, > Erek Jeez getting a bit testy aren’t we? But I suppose being a dick and yelling in a debate is just another manisfestation of God to you. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/48 "2005-11-09T22:09:37Z")
This atheist says keep the exemption. If we truly want government not to be involved in religion, this is important. Otherwise, changes to the tax code could effectively establish one church (by favorable treatment) and disestablish others. BTW, only the property and income of the church directly involved in religious activities is tax exempt. If the church owns income producing properties, income from these is taxable, even if the income goes to church functions. Source - page 14 of the IRS document ShibbOleth linked to. So, if the Catholic church owns lots of property, much of it is very probably taxed. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/49 "2005-11-09T22:13:23Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Religious = irrational, as far as I’m concerned. The specific reference was to Oral Roberts. I don’t want a bunch of untreated mentally unstable people living near me. It’s called society get used to it. Most people are untreated and mentally unstable. Your irrational fear of the religious is a sign of your mental state. Most religious people have no affiliation to Oral Roberts. Other than him being a televangelist, and having a funny name, I know nothing about him. Why are you judging me based on his actions? > [@](#): > > And a secular organization could do it better, I’m sure. Laws of supply and demand still apply. If a secular organization can do it better, then why aren’t they? > [@](#): > > I never claimed the world is all about me, you started that line of arguement with your library speech. Why should I pay for libraries? I don’t use them? So far your only argument against religious tax exemption is that you don’t like churches and feel like you shouldn’t have to pay for them. Why should I have to pay for libraries which I actually AM paying for unlike you with churches. Out of curiousity, how would you all feel about tax-exempting churches that existed before the sidewalk, fire department and police station? The clearly didn’t require those services in order to exist, so should they be taxed? Erek ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/50 "2005-11-09T22:13:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The coffeehouse is a for profit corporation with physical merchandise, the store owners are not making much money because of the way they are running their business. As Starbucks has shown, one can become exhorbitantly wealthy running a coffee shop. The owners are shareholders. There are no shareholders in a church, nor any monetary profit. > > Do you really not understand what seperates a non-profit institution from a for-profit corporation? > > Erek Lets say a person owns a coffee shop which is a community center. He derives an income from the coffee shop, pays for a home with the revenues and invests other parts of his income in a new location for his coffee shop. Is that a for profit business? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/51 "2005-11-09T22:15:45Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Jeez getting a bit testy aren’t we? But I suppose being a dick and yelling in a debate is just another manisfestation of God to you. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/52 "2005-11-09T22:16:50Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Lets say a person owns a coffee shop which is a community center. He derives an income from the coffee shop, pays for a home with the revenues and invests other parts of his income in a new location for his coffee shop. Is that a for profit business? If you run a business and you don’t earn a profit you are not taxed. I do not know how this applies to property tax as I have never had a business that owned property. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/53 "2005-11-09T22:18:03Z")
**treis** I feel like you need to be reminded of this before answering. I am against property taxes as a whole. I’d prefer ending property taxes to removing tax exempt status for a church. Erek ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/54 "2005-11-09T22:23:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > If you run a business and you don’t earn a profit you are not taxed. I do not know how this applies to property tax as I have never had a business that owned property. > > Erek So should this business be taxed or not? > [@mswas](#): > > ``` > treis I feel like you need to be reminded of this before answering. I am against property taxes as a whole. I'd prefer ending property taxes to removing tax exempt status for a church. > > ``` So how do you propose government services like Police, Fire etc. etc. be paid for? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/55 "2005-11-09T22:33:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I never said they have no right to complain. Okay, you could complain, but no one on the other side would have to provide any reasoning behind the ban, so long as they’ve got the numbers on their side, right? > [@](#): > > Well, your scenario is silly because I am in the vast majority in this particular case. However, I would not support this government if it repealed the first amendment. God trumps the state. No, he doesn’t. Not in this country, not in any country that values both freedom _and_ religion. Any country that places God above the state damages both of the irrepairably. A government that concerns itself with god will always neglect the physical well-being of its citizens, and a religion that concerns itself with government will always neglect their spiritual well-being. Mix them only at your peril. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/56 "2005-11-09T22:37:49Z")
> [@treis](#): > > So should this business be taxed or not? Is anyone making a profit? > [@](#): > > So how do you propose government services like Police, Fire etc. etc. be paid for? Higher income/sales tax. Erek ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/57 "2005-11-09T22:41:12Z")
I’ve posted a separate GQ thread to explore the factual side of this issue: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343995](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343995) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/58 "2005-11-09T22:45:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, you could complain, but no one on the other side would have to provide any reasoning behind the ban, so long as they’ve got the numbers on their side, right? This speculation is boring, they’d have to explain their rationale to get voters to agree to it. > [@](#): > > No, he doesn’t. Not in this country, not in any country that values both freedom _and_ religion. Any country that places God above the state damages both of the irrepairably. A government that concerns itself with god will always neglect the physical well-being of its citizens, and a religion that concerns itself with government will always neglect their spiritual well-being. Mix them only at your peril. God always trumps the state, in every state, on every planet in every galaxy regardless of civic values. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/59 "2005-11-09T22:55:40Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Oh, and do these art organizations host “art” that consists of speeches about how they are wonderful and their rivals are evil ? That’s advertising, not art. > > And I seriously that most of that money ends up doing anything but enriching the church. I’m sure the people at my church who run the food shelf, the subsidized day care center, and the support groups for depression and domestic violence would be surprised to learn they are in the entertainment business. And your characterization of what a typical sermon is like is, to put it mildly, wrong. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253/60 "2005-11-09T22:57:14Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Is anyone making a profit? I don’t know, does an sole owner deriving income from a business count as profits? [/quote] Higher income/sales tax. Erek [/QUOTE] How is that any fairer than property tax? At least with a property tax the tax is related to the amount of services necessary whereas income doesn’t corrolate at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-be-tax-exempt/330253.md?page=4)