# Should churches that refuse to perform gay marriages lose tax exempt status? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742 "2014-02-19T23:54:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/222 "2014-03-07T23:14:09Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > “I’d like the lasagna, please.” > “Sir, this is McDonald’s.” > “So?” > “We don’t serve lasagna.” > “But you serve _food_, though, don’t you?” > “Well, yes…” > “Then not serving lasagna is bigotry! I demand satisfaction!” > > Catholic churches offer Catholic weddings. Synagogues offer Jewish weddings. Etc. If you don’t want a Catholic wedding, then don’t get one. Go down the street where they actually serve lasagna. Ah, so you’re looking for a Pastafarian wedding ceremony. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/223 "2014-03-07T23:15:03Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > “I’d like the lasagna, please.” > “Sir, this is McDonald’s.” > “So?” > “We don’t serve lasagna.” > “But you serve _food_, though, don’t you?” > “Well, yes…” > “Then not serving lasagna is bigotry! I demand satisfaction!” > > Catholic churches offer Catholic weddings. Synagogues offer Jewish weddings. Etc. If you don’t want a Catholic wedding, then don’t get one. Go down the street where they actually serve lasagna. No, it’s not like that. “I want lasagna” “Are you Catholic? We only serve lasagna to Catholics” “No, I’m Jewish” “Get OUT!” Is the actual analogy. Just replace “lasagna” with “wedding”. It’s exactly the same, and exactly as unacceptable. If two Jews, for whatever reason, want a Catholic wedding, anywhere that offers Catholic weddings should not be allowed to refuse them on the grounds of religion (or race, gender, sexuality, disability, age, or whatever). ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/224 "2014-03-08T00:10:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it’s not like that. > > “I want lasagna” > “Are you Catholic? We only serve lasagna to Catholics” > “No, I’m Jewish” > “Get OUT!” No, it’s not like that. It’s like the previous analogy. It’s really amazing you can’t see that. If you go to a Catholic church, you can only expect Catholic weddings. If you go to McDonalds, only expect McDonalds food. Duh. But wait, maybe this analogy will sink in: “I want Jewish lasagna” “I"m sorry, we don’t have that, we only have Catholic lasagna.” “Oh, of course, how silly of me to go to a Catholic church and demand Jewish lasagna. I must be a complete fucking idiot.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/225 "2014-03-08T00:11:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, of course I do. Bigotry is still bigotry, and is still wrong, when performed under the cloak of religion. Of course, they don’t have to perform any marriages at all, that’s an easy option for them if they feel certain people shouldn’t be married. What they can’t do is pick and choose. If a service is offered, it should be offered to all. So we’re back to the NAACP being required not to discriminate against Klansmen who want to join. Do we have to do this again? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/226 "2014-03-08T00:12:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it’s not like that. > > “I want lasagna” > “Are you Catholic? We only serve lasagna to Catholics” > “No, I’m Jewish” > “Get OUT!” > > Is the actual analogy. Just replace “lasagna” with “wedding”. It’s exactly the same, and exactly as unacceptable. If two Jews, for whatever reason, want a Catholic wedding, anywhere that offers Catholic weddings should not be allowed to refuse them on the grounds of religion (or race, gender, sexuality, disability, age, or whatever). I have to admit finding your last several posts absolutely hilarious and nearly spit up water on my IPhone laughing. That said, please give me your definition of a Catholic wedding, a Muslim Wedding, an Orthodox Jewish wedding and a Reform Jewish wedding. Also, do you think that I should be allowed to force a women’s softball team to let me in as a member because if they don’t let me in because I’m a man they’re “bigots”? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/227 "2014-03-08T00:25:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I have to admit finding your last several posts absolutely hilarious and nearly spit up water on my IPhone laughing. > > That said, please give me your definition of a Catholic wedding, a Muslim Wedding, an Orthodox Jewish wedding and a Reform Jewish wedding. > > Also, do you think that I should be allowed to force a women’s softball team to let me in as a member because if they don’t let me in because I’m a man they’re “bigots”? I would put some plastic bags on your phone, because I think this will lead to actual spitting up. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/228 "2014-03-08T00:31:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, of course I do. Bigotry is still bigotry, and is still wrong, when performed under the cloak of religion. I think bigotry is wrong too. But there’s only so much you can regulate. I think all kinds of things are wrong, or stupid, about lots of religions. I don’t want to regulate every little thing religion does. Get over it. > [@](#): > > Of course, they don’t have to perform any marriages at all, that’s an easy option for them if they feel certain people shouldn’t be married. What they can’t do is pick and choose. If a service is offered, it should be offered to all. Or you should just mind your own business and stop intruding on other people’s lives. What’s next? Are you going to make it illegal for people who are invited to a gay wedding to refuse the invitation because they disapprove of gay marriage? That’s bigotry, and that’s wrong, right? And the idea that following your religion and expecting others who participate to follow it too is bigotry is just loony. Absoutely loony. It leads to absurdities like my example of requiring a synagogue of 50 Jews to admit 1,000 Christians. Which could promptly vote to convert it to a Christian Church. Get real. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/229 "2014-03-08T00:34:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > At least we know, as if there had been any doubt, that proponents of SSM who told us “if you don’t like gay marriage, just don’t enter into one” were lying. Excuse me, but I was not lying when I said that. I don’t support forcing churches to marry gays, nor do most SSM supporters. It’s really rude to try to lump people together like that and call them all liars when there’s just one or two loons it applies to. That’s also a really bad idea, since there are more than a few radical insane loons on the antigay side too. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/230 "2014-03-08T01:04:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > At least we know, as if there had been any doubt, that proponents of SSM who told us “if you don’t like gay marriage, just don’t enter into one” were lying. > > Regards, > Shodan At least on this thread, almost all the SSM guys are against forcing churches to perform SSMs. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/231 "2014-03-08T01:06:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I think bigotry is wrong too. But there’s only so much you can regulate. > > I Yep. Many people won’t date outside their race. Should we regulate that? Religion is a deeply personal issue, much like relationships. We cannot force religions to endorse certain behaviors. As for churches and their tax exempt status, the point of that is to maintain separation of church and state. If you thought corporations were bad, wait until organized religion starts directly campaigning for and against candidates. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/232 "2014-03-08T01:38:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > … If two Jews, for whatever reason, want a Catholic wedding, anywhere that offers Catholic weddings should not be allowed to refuse them on the grounds of religion (or race, gender, sexuality, disability, age, or whatever). In the history of civilization has there ever been a case of two devout — o/w they would not be jewish for this argument — jewish people who weren’t converting to catholicism going into a catholic church and asking to be married by a priest ? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/233 "2014-03-08T01:41:09Z")
No, but there are plenty of cases of one devout Jew trying to get a Catholic wedding. And often failing. I’m Jewish, my wife is Seventh Day Adventist. We did NOT get a church wedding, because all of them were clear: I had to convert. While unpleasant, I wouldn’t call it bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/234 "2014-03-08T02:01:59Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > In the history of civilization has there ever been a case of two devout — o/w they would not be jewish for this argument — jewish people who weren’t converting to catholicism going into a catholic church and asking to be married by a priest ? No, but according to him, if they ever want to, they can. Similarly, he very sincerely believes that if you want to fly to South Africa and force the Zulus to allow you into some of their sacred religious rituals then the South African government should force the Zulus to do so. I’d certainly love to see the expressions on people’s faces if he went to Canada or the US and demanded the government arrest Native American tribesmen for discrimination if they didn’t allow him to be a part of their special rituals or celebrations only open to tribesmen. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/235 "2014-03-08T02:16:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I have to admit finding your last several posts absolutely hilarious and nearly spit up water on my IPhone laughing. > > That said, please give me your definition of a Catholic wedding, a Muslim Wedding, an Orthodox Jewish wedding and a Reform Jewish wedding. > > Also, do you think that I should be allowed to force a women’s softball team to let me in as a member because if they don’t let me in because I’m a man they’re “bigots”? I too would love to hear **Steophan** ’s answer to this, because I suspect he doesn’t have a clue what the Catholic Church teaches about what a marriage is, and what marriage is supposed to mean. Or for that matter, any other Christian church. Hint: two men trying to have a ‘Catholic marriage’ makes about as much sense as showing up with a bowling ball to a golf course, and claiming that you want to redefine the sport of golf. Or, as you point out, Christians trying to redefine Judaism to include Jesus. I don’t know what Islam teaches about marriage- it isn’t my religion, so it isn’t my business- and I have zero opinion about who should be allowed to have a Muslim wedding, or not. If a Muslim girl wants to marry a Christian guy and her religion won’t allow her to, then she’s free to leave and choose a different religion (or, you know, just do whatever the equivalent term of ‘living in sin’ might be). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/236 "2014-03-08T02:18:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yep. Many people won’t date outside their race. Should we regulate that? Religion is a deeply personal issue, much like relationships. We cannot force religions to endorse certain behaviors. > > As for churches and their tax exempt status, the point of that is to maintain separation of church and state. If you thought corporations were bad, wait until organized religion starts directly campaigning for and against candidates. I’ll go further and say that while I support _the state_ treating gay couples the same way as it does everyone else, my preference would be that Christian churches _not_ perform gay marriages. It’s quite possible that sometime in the next few years my church will officially start allowing its clergy to perform same-sex marriages, and if that happens I would probably not leave, but I’d certainly be saddened. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/237 "2014-03-08T02:25:51Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I too would love to hear **Steophan** ’s answer to this, because I suspect he doesn’t have a clue what the Catholic Church teaches about what a marriage is, and what marriage is supposed to mean. Or for that matter, any other Christian church. Hint: two men trying to have a ‘Catholic marriage’ makes about as much sense as showing up with a bowling ball to a golf course, and claiming that you want to redefine the sport of golf. Or, as you point out, Christians trying to redefine Judaism to include Jesus. > > I don’t know what Islam teaches about marriage- it isn’t my religion, so it isn’t my business- and I have zero opinion about who should be allowed to have a Muslim wedding, or not. If a Muslim girl wants to marry a Christian guy and her religion won’t allow her to, then she’s free to leave and choose a different religion (or, you know, just do whatever the equivalent term of ‘living in sin’ might be). Actually, unlike Orthodox Judaism or traditional Christian churches, Islam does allow for interfaith marriages so long as the man is a Muslim and the woman is a Christian or Jew. This is because they’re recognized as fellow “people of the book”. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/238 "2014-03-08T02:46:47Z")
Hi **Ibn Warraq** , I actually had been told that, which is why I specified it being a Muslim girl and a non-Muslim guy. I know an Indian Muslim whose first wife was a former Hindu who converted to Christianity so she could marry him. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/239 "2014-03-08T03:18:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually, unlike Orthodox Judaism or traditional Christian churches, Islam does allow for interfaith marriages so long as the man is a Muslim and the woman is a Christian or Jew. > > This is because they’re recognized as fellow “people of the book”. The Wiki has [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam#Conditions) interesting treatment of that (I’ve bolded the part I find most interesting): > [@](#): > > Marriage is permitted for a man with a chaste woman either Muslim or from the People of the Book (Arabic Ahl al Kitab, Jews, Sabians and Christians) but not to polytheists (or “idolaters”: Yusufali translation or “idolatresses”: Pickthal translation). For women, marriage to Jews, Sabians and Christians and to polytheists (Idolatry) (or “idolaters”: Yusufali translation or “disbelievers”: Pickthall translation) is prohibited. She is only allowed to marry a Muslim There is no express prohibition in the Qur’an or elsewhere about a Muslim woman marrying a kitabi (People of the Book). However, the vast majority of Muslim jurists argued that since express permission was given to men, by implication women must be prohibited from doing the same. **The movement of Islam jurists and imans that do not agree on this interpretation is growing.** For the part I bolded, there’s a footnote which takes you to this short [PDF pamphlet](http://interreligiousdialogue.weebly.com/uploads/7/9/1/5/7915856/when_two_faiths__meet.pdf). One inter-faith couple (Muslim woman, Catholic man) pamphlet were married by a Muslim cleric. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/240 "2014-03-08T03:24:51Z")
Who are the Sabians exactly? I’ve heard people claim it refers to Mandaeans, but I don’t know if that’s correct. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/241 "2014-03-08T03:56:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The Wiki has [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam#Conditions) interesting treatment of that (I’ve bolded the part I find most interesting): > For the part I bolded, there’s a footnote which takes you to this short [PDF pamphlet](http://interreligiousdialogue.weebly.com/uploads/7/9/1/5/7915856/when_two_faiths__meet.pdf). One inter-faith couple (Muslim woman, Catholic man) pamphlet were married by a Muslim cleric. Thanks for the link! I’m glad there’s some push to change the tradition to be less sexist, but I had known there was some strong pushback against it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742.md?page=13)