# Should churches that refuse to perform gay marriages lose tax exempt status?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 19, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742 "2014-02-19T23:54:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/61 "2014-02-21T01:18:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Because it amounts to us non-believers being forced to subsidize them. They shouldn’t be tax exempt any more than any other business.
Including any other non-profit?
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### Author:  [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/62 "2014-02-21T01:44:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Because it amounts to us non-believers being forced to subsidize them. They shouldn’t be tax exempt any more than any other business.
All non-profit organizations are tax exempt. Museums, universities, charities, etc. Why should religious institutions be any different? They are treated the same by the IRS.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/63 "2014-02-21T02:00:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> A church should no more be allowed to discriminate than anybody else. So yes, if a church performs weddings it should perform gay weddings, if it ordains anyone it should ordain women, and if it admits white people it should admit black people.
If a church admits Christians, should it also admit Jews?
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/64 "2014-02-21T02:33:00Z")
> [@suranyi](#):
>
> All non-profit organizations are tax exempt. Museums, universities, charities, etc. Why should religious institutions be any different? They are treated the same by the IRS.
They aren’t treated the same. Other tax-exempt organizations have to open up their books every year to prove that they aren’t cheating.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/65 "2014-02-21T02:40:52Z")
> [@UDS](#):
>
> Including any other non-profit?
I don’t regard them as non-profit.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/66 "2014-02-21T04:41:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> A church should no more be allowed to discriminate than anybody else. So yes, if a church performs weddings it should perform gay weddings, if it ordains anyone it should ordain women, and if it admits white people it should admit black people.
>
> Religion is not an excuse for bigotry, and they should be subject to the same rules as everyone else. It’ll never happen, sadly, because religion seems far too entrenched in society, as an excuse for people to fuck other people over. Needless to say, the right to practice a religion should not be considered a fundamental right at all, let alone one that trumps other people’s rights.
Should the KKK be forced to allow black people to join?
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/67 "2014-02-21T05:10:58Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#):
>
> That’s an overstatement. Some lose their tax status for it.
Yes, I was being funny.
> [@Falchion](#):
>
> Except that the ACLU and NARAL aren’t 501(c)(3) organizations.
They both have 501(c)(3) arms as well as 501(c)(4) arms. So if you’ve been meaning to make a donation to these organizations but didn’t because you didn’t think it would be tax deductible, you can donate to their 501(c)(3)
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### Author:  [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/68 "2014-02-21T05:27:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> I don’t regard them as non-profit.
I’ll be sure and write a letter to the IRS–some guy on an internet message board doesn’t think they are non-profit. Change the tax code now!
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### Author:  [@johnnyc323](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnnyc323)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/69 "2014-02-21T05:33:42Z")
> [@appleciders](#):
>
> No. Churches should not have their arms twisted to perform, recognize, or solemnize interracial, homosexual, or interfaith marriages. Churches that won’t perform interracial marriages today don’t lose their tax-exempt status, and they shouldn’t. Churches that refuse to perform sacred rites for any reason have that right. That’s part of freedom of religion, and it is not the government’s place to tell churches what to do or who to do it to. The government also shouldn’t force Catholics to have female priests or make Jehovah’s witnesses recite the Pledge of Allegiance. I also don’t support government bans on churches handling snakes.
>
> I am in favor of legal gay marriage because that’s a governmental function.
Amen, except that I do have a problem with the use of the word “marriage.” I think it’s always been an egregious violation of the doctrine of separation for the state to act as if it had the power to authorize something that’s either God-ordained or private citizen ordained. Render unto God the things that are God’s (the sacrament of marriage), and unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s (legal and financial contracts governing the domestic partnership). After all the essence of marriage is “til death do us part.” Since slavery is illegal, no civil entity could possibly enforce that provision, so how can it grant it?
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### Author:  [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/70 "2014-02-21T05:34:07Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> Should the KKK be forced to allow black people to join?
Or, to use another example, should I be able able to go into a Navajo village and demand they all me to be a part of their ceremonial dances.
Based on Steophan’s logic if any of the Navajo told me I couldn’t join in they’d be “bigots”.
Similarly, based on his logic, Catholic Churches should be forced to allow Jewish or interfaith churches to have their weddings there or they’d be bigots.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/71 "2014-02-21T05:46:58Z")
> [@johnnyc323](#):
>
> Amen, except that I do have a problem with the use of the word “marriage.” I think it’s always been an egregious violation of the doctrine of separation for the state to act as if it had the power to authorize something that’s either God-ordained or private citizen ordained. Render unto God the things that are God’s (the sacrament of marriage), and unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s (legal and financial contracts governing the domestic partnership).
Garbage. Religions don’t have the right to decide who can and can’t get married. You aren’t calling for separation between church and state, you are demanding that the state submit to the church.
The only thing that religion has to offer as far as marriage goes are rituals and rules that _outside of that particular religious sect_ are meaningless. It is the state not the church that makes a marriage real, and not merely the declaration of some particular sect or priest. It is the official recognition of the government that makes people married; churches have no say in the matter.
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### Author:  [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/72 "2014-02-21T06:07:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> I don’t regard them as non-profit.
Why not?
Please explain how an organization of Reform Temples can’t be a non-profit organization.
BTW, I’m not being snarky I’m genuinely curious as to your logic.
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### Author:  [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/73 "2014-02-21T09:59:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> If a church admits Christians, should it also admit Jews?
Yes, obviously.
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> Should the KKK be forced to allow black people to join?
Yes, obviously.
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#):
>
> Or, to use another example, should I be able able to go into a Navajo village and demand they all me to be a part of their ceremonial dances.
>
> Based on Steophan’s logic if any of the Navajo told me I couldn’t join in they’d be “bigots”.
>
> Similarly, based on his logic, Catholic Churches should be forced to allow Jewish or interfaith churches to have their weddings there or they’d be bigots.
Definitely on the latter part - but of course they would be _Catholic_ weddings. They don’t have to offer Jewish weddings, but they should offer Catholic weddings without discrimination.
I don’t know anything about ritual dances, but if it’s a public event, a service offered, or a job, then they should not be allowed to discriminate based on race or religion.
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### Author:  [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/74 "2014-02-21T10:02:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Should churches discriminate? No. Is religion an excuse for bigotry? No. But that doesn’t mean the government should force churches to do things.
They should be treated the same as any other organisation. A shop can’t refuse service to someone because of their race or religion, or refuse to employ them because of it. Neither should a church be allowed to.
> [@](#):
>
> As an atheist, I disagree - and it’s a good thing, because if society doesn’t respect differing views on religions, _we’d_ be the first ones against the wall.
Atheists don’t _have_ religious practices. I’m not talking about the freedom to believe whatever you want, I’m talking about the freedom to practice a religion in a way that harms others. That should not be a right.
There’s no way my proposal could harm atheists.
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/75 "2014-02-21T13:08:51Z")
Now I have this image of a snake-handling Pentecostal gay marriage ceremony.
Should be a blast.
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### Author:  [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/76 "2014-02-21T13:44:43Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#):
>
> They aren’t treated the same. Other tax-exempt organizations have to open up their books every year to prove that they aren’t cheating.
True, but that applies to several other kinds of groups too.
[http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Annual-Exempt-Organization-Return:--Who-Must-File](http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Annual-Exempt-Organization-Return:--Who-Must-File)
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### Author:  [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/77 "2014-02-21T13:58:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> I don’t regard them as non-profit.
So they are intended to make a profit?
You can’t just define “non-profit” according to your personal whims.
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### Author:  [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/78 "2014-02-21T14:01:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> They should be treated the same as any other organisation. A shop can’t refuse service to someone because of their race or religion, or refuse to employ them because of it. Neither should a church be allowed to.
Should the Ku Klux Klan be required to admit blacks too?
> [@](#):
>
> Atheists don’t _have_ religious practices. I’m not talking about the freedom to believe whatever you want, I’m talking about the freedom to practice a religion in a way that harms others. That should not be a right.
But you can’t separate the two when it comes to religion. It’s religion, it’s all about beleiving and practicing things that are often irrational and can hurt people. That’s life.
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### Author:  [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/79 "2014-02-21T14:02:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> Definitely on the latter part - but of course they would be _Catholic_ weddings. They don’t have to offer Jewish weddings, but they should offer Catholic weddings without discrimination.
They do. A Catholic wedding is a union between a man and a woman. A marriage between two men or two women cannot be a Catholic wedding.
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### Author:  [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/80 "2014-02-21T14:34:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> I don’t regard them as non-profit.
You should come to a budget meeting with me then, 'cause I’d love to see us in the black on of these days.
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