# Should churches that refuse to perform gay marriages lose tax exempt status? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742 "2014-02-19T23:54:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/141 "2014-02-22T13:08:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Why just a bar though? > > Explain exactly why my wife isn’t a bigot for having a lady’s only night. Is it open to the public? If not, no problem. > [@](#): > > Again, why no? A business shouldn’t be allowed to refuse service to someone based on race, because to do so is morally wrong. It’s really quite simple. > [@](#): > > Religion is not a business or public accomodation. It is as personal, and subjective, as choosing friends or mates. You should stay the hell out of it. In terms of what you personally believe, that’s correct. But the minute you start offering services, taking money, and holding public meetings, it becomes my business - or more precisely, society’s business. And society should hold religious organisations to the same standards as others. It is no more acceptable to refuse a wedding to someone based on their sexuality than it is to refuse a burger to someone based on their skin colour. The burger seller’s racism may be personal and subjective, but he’s taken it into the public sphere when he starts selling burgers, and as a society that has (rightly) been condemned. The same needs to be done to other immoral beliefs, such as religions. One can hold them in private if one insists, but when they affect others in a negative and discriminatory fashion, they should be controlled. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/142 "2014-02-22T13:12:06Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So, fuck freedom of religion. Yep, fuck it when it impinges on other people’s rights. You have the right to whatever private thoughts you want, but not to use those beliefs to infringe others rights. > [@](#): > > And the idea that excluding people who don’t believe in your religion, or even actively hate your religion, is “bigotry” is why you’re so whack. You say I’m against freedom of religion, and in the next sentence say that certain people should not be allowed to choose a certain religion. Amazing. Do you ever read your posts back to yourself to hear how ridiculous they are? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/143 "2014-02-22T13:15:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Does your arrogance know no bounds? Do you really have such little respect for other human beings that you won’t even give them the right to know what they believe better than you do? I’ve have extremely little respect for people who base their morality on the ramblings of bronze age goatherders, fictional carpenters, and the voices in their heads. To claim that such nonsense should allow people a pass on discrimination against others is laughable. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/144 "2014-02-22T13:18:28Z")
I don’t believe a church should preform any service they don’t approve of, that is their right, but it shouldn’t stop a couple from donating any money or services to the institution and they and their friends and family can boycott the Church or business. Although the state can force a couple to refuse their child medical treatments that are against their religion. In that case the state is protecting the young. I personally wouldn’t want a church to decide what I do or think, so were I in the situation as a gay person is in, I can’t understand why they want a church wedding to begin with! ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/145 "2014-02-22T13:39:00Z")
If the Church isn’t participating in politics, then they’re entitled to tax-exempt status under the law. The Church isn’t required to perform marriage ceremonies to gay couples, if gay marriage is against Church teachings. This all changes once the Church presents themselves to the general public as a business providing marriage ceremony services in exchange for money. Here they must conform to all the laws that apply to businesses, and if these laws give protected status to LGBT, then they must perform gay marriage. They’re a business, not a Church at this point. Pretty sure the profits from said business would be taxable. Christ threw the moneychangers out of the Temple, may He have mercy on those who invite them back in. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/146 "2014-02-22T15:41:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s nothing confused about the idea that religion should not be allowed to be a shield for bigotry. And yet, the only person in this thread who is taking an explicitly bigoted position is yourself. Funny, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/147 "2014-02-22T15:45:18Z")
> [@johnnyc323](#): > > I believe you mean to say that the official recognition of the government is what makes people legally domestic partners. I couldn’t agree with you more about that. Exactly how is the state submitting to the church when the church has no involvement - nor should it have - in the legalities of a civil union and the state is calling all the appropriate shots? No, what the state is recognizing is a marriage. The word has legal meaning; a civil union is not a marriage. And the state is submitting to the church when it hands over the right to decide who is and isn’t married _to_ the church. > [@Marley23](#): > > “RELIGION’S BAD!” doesn’t work as an argument in this context, and I don’t know what “anti-human” even means. Religion is anti-human the same way the AIDS virus is anti-human; it is a parasite upon humanity and causes humanity great harm. And, it creates anti-human attitudes in its followers; I see religious people demonize humans all the time in order to defend and excuse religion & religious practices and to encourage faith. For example, whenever someone criticizes the actions taken in the name of religion one of the first defenses out of their mouth is that humans are all monsters who would do all those horrible things just as much without religion. And then there’s the way religions encourage people to disdain real, _human_ concerns and pleasures for an imaginary god and imaginary afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/148 "2014-02-22T16:26:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Religion is anti-human the same way the AIDS virus is anti-human; it is a parasite upon humanity and causes humanity great harm. > > And, it creates anti-human attitudes in its followers; I see religious people demonize humans all the time in order to defend and excuse religion & religious practices and to encourage faith. Yeah, it’s terrible the way some people demonize people they disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/149 "2014-02-22T16:30:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Yeah, it’s terrible the way some people demonize people they disagree with. I was talking about how defenders of religion regularly demonize everyone, not just those they disagree with. Nor is religion a person. And your attempt to slam me is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if I’m the reincarnation of Hitler; my evil or the lack thereof doesn’t make religion any better. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/150 "2014-02-22T16:42:20Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I also want to thank Steophan for comin clean on the “forcing churches to do whatever non-church members want”. Fianlly one of “you” said it, it wasn’t a delusion “we” had. You somehow failed to notice that everybody disagrees with him. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/151 "2014-02-22T17:33:30Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > …I oppose their tax exempt status anyway. That’s my argument as well. They shouldn’t be tax exempt in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/152 "2014-02-22T17:58:54Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > They collectively have vast untaxed land holdings. This should not be taxed why? Well, though I’m a hard core atheist, I recognize how historic churches and other places of worship add to the architectural character of eastern cities like Montréal, New York and Boston, etc. and putting fair-market property taxes could cause a number of them to close and be demolished for generic condos or office towers. I see some value in the aesthetics, though mileage varies of course. I’d be okay with putting conventional tax rates on new church buildings, while grandfathering any built before, say, WW2. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/153 "2014-02-22T18:15:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > How about > “Hello Mr Rabbi, I want to join your synagogue” > “Are you a Jew?” > “None of your business” > “You can’t enter unless you’re a Jew” > “Bigot” > “…” > > Which is actually the point. The synagogue has no more right to deny you entry based than McDonalds. So, hate speech towards the staff would be an acceptable reason to do so. Private beliefs, skin colour, gender, sexuality, religion (which is really a subcategory of private beliefs), or disability are not. Respectfully, if you’re so ignorant about this subject that you think Synagogues deny entry to non-Jews or would even ask someone “are you a Jew” before entry, you really should learn more before you form such strong opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/154 "2014-02-22T18:24:01Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I also want to thank Steophan for comin clean on the “forcing churches to do whatever non-church members want”. Fianlly one of “you” said it, it wasn’t a delusion “we” had. Except every other person on this thread who’s touched on the subject has ridiculed his opinions, several of whom, including myself, aren’t religious believers. Anyway, I do find the idea of what parades would look like if Steophan’s idiotic ideas were taken seriously by anyone. NAACP marches would be told they’d have include members of the KKK if they wanted to march and marchers on Holocaust Remembrance Day would be forced to include Holocaust Deniers. It would also be quite amusing to imagine what would happen during the Marching season in his own UK. Thankfully, no one but him seems to believe what he’s claiming. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/155 "2014-02-22T19:25:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It would also be quite amusing to imagine what would happen during the Marching season in his own UK. Anything that would fuck up the EDL or the Orange Order would make me extremely happy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/156 "2014-02-22T19:29:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Respectfully, if you’re so ignorant about this subject that you think Synagogues deny entry to non-Jews or would even ask someone “are you a Jew” before entry, you really should learn more before you form such strong opinions. I was responding to an equally ridiculous hypothetical, if you bother to read it. If Synagogues aren’t bigoted, then there’s no problem. Doesn’t make your argument that bigotry against bigots is acceptable, or that we allow people freedom of religion by denying them access to religious establishments anything other than ridiculous Orwellian doublethink. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/157 "2014-02-22T19:31:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You somehow failed to notice that everybody disagrees with him. :rolleyes: It’s tough being a pioneer. ---
**Author:** ![johnnyc323](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/13edae/32.png) [@johnnyc323](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnnyc323)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/158 "2014-02-22T21:41:01Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > So long as we’re going to keep the two-step marriage process, though, I think states need to allow anyone to perform a marriage without them pretending to be a minister. Being a minister shouldn’t give you any special entitlement to act on behalf of the state, and you shouldn’t have to get an ordination certificate from a fake online church to get a privilege granted by the state (fake as it may be, it still has to pretend to be a church, so that’s a religious test). I don’t like my state having anything called a [“minister license”](http://www.sos.state.oh.us/recordsIndexes/MinisterLicense.aspx). > > (My solution is to just drop the solemnization step and just add any necessary formalities to the licensing process. When you go to the county building to get your marriage license, that means you’re married. Voila. If you want a ceremony, anybody and everybody can conduct it because it’s legally meaningless. This protects churches from lawsuits, too, because the argument that a church is acting as a delegate of the state when performing marriages is totally gone.) Lord Feldon has nailed it, how anyone could not agree with this analysis is beyond me. This is the way it should have been all along. A church has absolutely no right to confer legal rights, and the government has no right to sanction or dictate the conduct of a private religious/cultural ritual. ---
**Author:** ![johnnyc323](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/13edae/32.png) [@johnnyc323](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnnyc323)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/159 "2014-02-22T21:54:02Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Because just like many other 501(c)(3) non-profit organizations, churches provide valuable opportunities for the community to gather, build relationships, engage in other cooperative ventures to benefit society, etc. The reason we exempt non-profit organizations from taxation began with the importance of religious institutions in these activities, and in the role these institutions play in the lives of the American population. Churches have long been the incubators of civic involvement, and that has tremendous value - even if you disagree with many churches’ beliefs and activities. Munch makes a very good point. Let’s not forget that the Civil Rights movement as led by Martin Luther King was really - and I first heard this in a PBS documentary - a kind of religious revival, his letter from a Birmingham jail being a strong proclamation of the connection between his faith in Jesus Christ and his beliefs on racial equality. This is a very inconvenient truth for secular liberals, but nonetheless true. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742/160 "2014-02-22T22:21:56Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Well, though I’m a hard core atheist, I recognize how historic churches and other places of worship add to the architectural character of eastern cities like Montréal, New York and Boston, etc. and putting fair-market property taxes could cause a number of them to close and be demolished for generic condos or office towers. I see some value in the aesthetics, though mileage varies of course. I’d be okay with putting conventional tax rates on new church buildings, while grandfathering any built before, say, WW2. [/QUOTE] That is a fair point, I can live with that, though they should meet some designation as historic buildings. But their schools, and in some cases farmland and vineyards? I don’t think I accept the idea they need to be tax free. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-churches-that-refuse-to-perform-gay-marriages-lose-tax-exempt-status/681742.md?page=9)