Ah, so you’re looking for a Pastafarian wedding ceremony.
No, it’s not like that.
“I want lasagna”
“Are you Catholic? We only serve lasagna to Catholics”
“No, I’m Jewish”
“Get OUT!”
Is the actual analogy. Just replace “lasagna” with “wedding”. It’s exactly the same, and exactly as unacceptable. If two Jews, for whatever reason, want a Catholic wedding, anywhere that offers Catholic weddings should not be allowed to refuse them on the grounds of religion (or race, gender, sexuality, disability, age, or whatever).
No, it’s not like that. It’s like the previous analogy. It’s really amazing you can’t see that.
If you go to a Catholic church, you can only expect Catholic weddings. If you go to McDonalds, only expect McDonalds food.
Duh.
But wait, maybe this analogy will sink in:
“I want Jewish lasagna”
“I"m sorry, we don’t have that, we only have Catholic lasagna.”
“Oh, of course, how silly of me to go to a Catholic church and demand Jewish lasagna. I must be a complete fucking idiot.”
So we’re back to the NAACP being required not to discriminate against Klansmen who want to join.
Do we have to do this again?
I have to admit finding your last several posts absolutely hilarious and nearly spit up water on my IPhone laughing.
That said, please give me your definition of a Catholic wedding, a Muslim Wedding, an Orthodox Jewish wedding and a Reform Jewish wedding.
Also, do you think that I should be allowed to force a women’s softball team to let me in as a member because if they don’t let me in because I’m a man they’re “bigots”?
I would put some plastic bags on your phone, because I think this will lead to actual spitting up.
I think bigotry is wrong too. But there’s only so much you can regulate.
I think all kinds of things are wrong, or stupid, about lots of religions. I don’t want to regulate every little thing religion does.
Get over it.
Or you should just mind your own business and stop intruding on other people’s lives.
What’s next? Are you going to make it illegal for people who are invited to a gay wedding to refuse the invitation because they disapprove of gay marriage? That’s bigotry, and that’s wrong, right?
And the idea that following your religion and expecting others who participate to follow it too is bigotry is just loony. Absoutely loony. It leads to absurdities like my example of requiring a synagogue of 50 Jews to admit 1,000 Christians. Which could promptly vote to convert it to a Christian Church.
Get real.
Excuse me, but I was not lying when I said that. I don’t support forcing churches to marry gays, nor do most SSM supporters.
It’s really rude to try to lump people together like that and call them all liars when there’s just one or two loons it applies to. That’s also a really bad idea, since there are more than a few radical insane loons on the antigay side too.
At least on this thread, almost all the SSM guys are against forcing churches to perform SSMs.
Yep. Many people won’t date outside their race. Should we regulate that? Religion is a deeply personal issue, much like relationships. We cannot force religions to endorse certain behaviors.
As for churches and their tax exempt status, the point of that is to maintain separation of church and state. If you thought corporations were bad, wait until organized religion starts directly campaigning for and against candidates.
In the history of civilization has there ever been a case of two devout — o/w they would not be jewish for this argument — jewish people who weren’t converting to catholicism going into a catholic church and asking to be married by a priest ?
No, but there are plenty of cases of one devout Jew trying to get a Catholic wedding. And often failing.
I’m Jewish, my wife is Seventh Day Adventist. We did NOT get a church wedding, because all of them were clear: I had to convert. While unpleasant, I wouldn’t call it bigotry.
No, but according to him, if they ever want to, they can.
Similarly, he very sincerely believes that if you want to fly to South Africa and force the Zulus to allow you into some of their sacred religious rituals then the South African government should force the Zulus to do so.
I’d certainly love to see the expressions on people’s faces if he went to Canada or the US and demanded the government arrest Native American tribesmen for discrimination if they didn’t allow him to be a part of their special rituals or celebrations only open to tribesmen.
I too would love to hear Steophan’s answer to this, because I suspect he doesn’t have a clue what the Catholic Church teaches about what a marriage is, and what marriage is supposed to mean. Or for that matter, any other Christian church. Hint: two men trying to have a ‘Catholic marriage’ makes about as much sense as showing up with a bowling ball to a golf course, and claiming that you want to redefine the sport of golf. Or, as you point out, Christians trying to redefine Judaism to include Jesus.
I don’t know what Islam teaches about marriage- it isn’t my religion, so it isn’t my business- and I have zero opinion about who should be allowed to have a Muslim wedding, or not. If a Muslim girl wants to marry a Christian guy and her religion won’t allow her to, then she’s free to leave and choose a different religion (or, you know, just do whatever the equivalent term of ‘living in sin’ might be).
I’ll go further and say that while I support the state treating gay couples the same way as it does everyone else, my preference would be that Christian churches not perform gay marriages.
It’s quite possible that sometime in the next few years my church will officially start allowing its clergy to perform same-sex marriages, and if that happens I would probably not leave, but I’d certainly be saddened.
Actually, unlike Orthodox Judaism or traditional Christian churches, Islam does allow for interfaith marriages so long as the man is a Muslim and the woman is a Christian or Jew.
This is because they’re recognized as fellow “people of the book”.
Hi Ibn Warraq,
I actually had been told that, which is why I specified it being a Muslim girl and a non-Muslim guy. I know an Indian Muslim whose first wife was a former Hindu who converted to Christianity so she could marry him.
The Wiki has this interesting treatment of that (I’ve bolded the part I find most interesting):
For the part I bolded, there’s a footnote which takes you to this short PDF pamphlet. One inter-faith couple (Muslim woman, Catholic man) pamphlet were married by a Muslim cleric.
Who are the Sabians exactly?
I’ve heard people claim it refers to Mandaeans, but I don’t know if that’s correct.
Thanks for the link!
I’m glad there’s some push to change the tradition to be less sexist, but I had known there was some strong pushback against it.