# Should Creationism be taught in Schools? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2000, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866 "2000-06-19T16:24:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/21 "2000-06-20T14:27:20Z")
The 2000 Southern Baptist [Faith and Message Statement](http://www.sbc.net/2000_report.html), which has been in the news lately, says the following: > [@](#): > > The state owes to every church protection and full freedom in the pursuit of its spiritual ends. In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others…The church should not resort to the civil power to carry on its work…The state has no right to impose penalties for religious opinions of any kind. Seems straightforward to me. What is state-sponsored school prayer other than the Church “resort[ing] to the civil power to carry on its work”? And the same would seem to hold true for demanding that the state schools teach the creation story of one religion as fact, to the exclusion of all other religions’ creation stories. I am pleasantly surprised by the SBC’s enlightened stance on this issue. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/22 "2000-06-20T15:32:47Z")
JMullaney: You not only have permission to paraphrase, you have permission to outright, steal/ripoff said quote. And as for the recent Supreme Court decision: Good on them. Especially since, here in Virginia, a “minute of silence” was recently made mandatory in public schools. The Commonwealth Attorney General is advocating that teachers go ahead and say students can pray. Now, there’s not necessarily anything wrong with that, but I get the feeling that too many teachers will convey “can pray” to “will pray.” pinqy ---
**Author:** ![jayron\_32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/41988e/32.png) [@jayron\_32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayron_32)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/23 "2000-06-20T15:51:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t believe in Creationism because I don’t subscribe to that particular religion. > > ``` > I don't believe in Evolution because it's not the kind of thing you need to "believe" in -- it's supported > by the evidence. > > ``` Amen brother. Preach on Tracer. Seriously, evolution is like gravity. It exists. Merely denying that gravity occurs is not enough to cause you to float into space, and merely teaching “Creationism” in public schools is not enough to make a common biological process cease to function. ---
**Author:** ![noggins74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecae2f/32.png) [@noggins74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/noggins74)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/24 "2000-06-20T16:30:57Z")
For those of you who say evolution is supported by the “scientific evidence”, I’d like to know what evidence you’re talking about. Evolution cannot be proven anymore than creationism can be proven. Evolution is just a THEORY. On another note…the Constitution does not provide for separation of church and state. That phrase isn’t even used in the Constitution. It was first used in a Supreme Court decision in the early 1960’s. The Constitution provides freedom _FOR_ religion, not _FROM_ religion. Personally, I think wanting all these laws telling us that we can’t have prayer in schools, etc. is silly. All it’s doing is allowing the government one more way to tell us what we can and can’t do. If you don’t want to pray, don’t pray. But don’t let the government have more control over what you do and don’t do than you have to. For those of you who say that you are offended by prayer in school and don’t want it, fine–but my point is, what’s next? If they won’t allow you to pray, what freedom will they take away next? I know some of you will say, “they’re not taking away the freedom to pray, just that the school can’t mandate it”. It’s just a stepping stone if you ask me. The ACLU is now saying that the Virginia laws which allow for a moment of silence could be affected by this. During that moment of silence, a student could pray, meditate or do anything they want. Why would you want the government to interfere with that? (If you want to see the Washington Post article on the subject, go here [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23419-2000Jun19.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23419-2000Jun19.html) ) We need less governmental interference and more people thinking for themselves. And one more thing that I just have to say…for those of you that are offended by every little thing that others say and do…lighten up. There will never be a time when everyone will agree, but that’s the beauty of this country…we are _ALL_ free to express ourselves the way we want to. (for now) ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/25 "2000-06-20T16:51:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > If they won’t allow you to pray, what freedom will they take away next? > > I know some of you will say, “they’re not taking away the freedom to pray, just that the school can’t mandate it”. It’s just a stepping stone if you ask me. The ACLU is now saying that the Virginia laws which allow for a moment of silence could be affected by this. During that moment of silence, a student could pray, meditate or do anything they want. > \*\* So what, now you need silence to pray? I mean, why waste everyone’s time with a moment of silence everyday anyway? You can always pray all you want at any time – I don’t think anyone can stop you without knocking you unconscience. You don’t seem to have thought this through. Evolution is just the BEST theory which fits the facts. We simply don’t have time in our schools to teach the 5000 different theories of how the world came into existance – even if we spent a minute on each one, that is still over two solid weeks… Joel ---
**Author:** ![noggins74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecae2f/32.png) [@noggins74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/noggins74)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/26 "2000-06-20T17:13:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > So what, now you need silence to pray? I mean, why waste everyone’s time with a moment of silence everyday anyway? You can always pray all you want at any time – I don’t think anyone can stop you without knocking you unconscience. You don’t seem to have thought this through. > \*\* My point wasn’t that a person would be physically unable to pray because of these laws, but that the laws are just plain unnecessary. The government does not need to be in control of every little aspect of our lives. Yes, you can pray silently to yourself, but I don’t think it’s right to be told that you can’t do it publicly. Why do you want to allow the government to tell you what you can and can’t do? There are a lot of things out there that offend people, but you can’t shut yourself off from the world, and you can’t always have things your way. Someone is always going to be offended by something. You can’t pass a law over every behavior that offends someone. This debate is specifically about prayer in schools (which I am assuming you are not in favor of), but what happens, when someone is offended by something that you are doing or saying? Are you going to just sit there while they pass another law to control your behavior? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Evolution is just the BEST theory which fits the facts. We simply don’t have time in our schools to teach the 5000 different theories of how the world came into existance – even if we spent a minute on each one, that is still over two solid weeks… > > Joel > \*\* There are many holes in the theory of evolution, so to say it is the best theory isn’t saying much. ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/27 "2000-06-20T17:20:26Z")
> [@](#): > > **Personally, I think wanting all these laws telling us that we can’t have prayer in schools, etc. is silly. All it’s doing is allowing the government one more way to tell us what we can and can’t do. If you don’t want to pray, don’t pray. But don’t let the government have more control over what you do and don’t do than you have to. For those of you who say that you are offended by prayer in school and don’t want it, fine–but my point is, what’s next? If they won’t allow you to pray, what freedom will they take away next?** Personally, I think wanting all these laws telling us that we have to have prayer in schools, etc. is silly. All it’s doing is allowing the government one more way to tell us what we can and can’t do. If you want to pray, pray. But don’t let the government have more control over what you do and don’t do than you have to. For those of you who say that you want prayer in school, fine–but my point is, what’s next? If they force you to pray, what freedom will they take away next? Here’s the question…why do you want the government to tell children when and how to pray? Will you still be in favor if the prayers are to different gods than yours? And as for evolution, no it is not “just a theory.” That evolution happens is a fact. It has been observed. Speciation has been observed. The theory part are the exact mechanisms by which it has happened. Please look up the scientific definition of “theory,” which differs from popular usage. (popular usage of the word is actually closer to “hypothesis”). I’ll remind you that Gravity is “only a theory.” pinqy ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/28 "2000-06-20T17:21:05Z")
This isn’t a matter of laws being passed. The Supreme court doesn’t pass laws. This is a matter of the behavior of the executive branch of the government itself (of which schools are a part) and how it behaves and the judicial branch seeing to it that it acts constitutionally (or in the spirit thereof). ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/29 "2000-06-20T17:29:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > For those of you who say evolution is supported by the “scientific evidence”, I’d like to know what evidence you’re talking about. Evolution cannot be proven anymore than creationism can be proven. Evolution is just a THEORY. > > \*\* As has been said on these boards countless times, evolution has been prove. It has been witnessed on several occasions. The reason that it is still referred to as a theory is because the exact nature of how it works is not quite understood. Not knowing how something works is much different than saying it isn’t proven. If you want to call evolution just a “THEORY”, I suggest that you start referring to gravity as just a “THEORY”. ---
**Author:** ![noggins74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecae2f/32.png) [@noggins74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/noggins74)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/30 "2000-06-20T17:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Personally, I think wanting all these laws telling us that we have to have prayer in schools, etc. is silly. All it’s doing is allowing the government one more way to tell us what we can and can’t do. If you want to pray, pray. But don’t let the government have more control over what you do and don’t do than you have to. For those of you who say that you want prayer in school, fine–but my point is, what’s next? If they force you to pray, what freedom will they take away next? > > Here’s the question…why do you want the government to tell children when and how to pray? Will you still be in favor if the prayers are to different gods than yours? > > pinqy > \*\* I never said that the government should tell us we _have_ to pray, or _how_ to pray. I wouldn’t want that either. My point is that the government shouldn’t be telling us what to do AT ALL. If someone wants to pray, they should be allowed to (and they shouldn’t have to hide it), if someone doesn’t want to pray, they shouldn’t have to (and they shouldn’t be punished for it)…why do we need a law to tell us this? That is my question. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/31 "2000-06-20T17:43:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > My point is that the government shouldn’t be telling us what to do AT ALL. > \*\* now, if you are trying to make the argument that the government shouldn’t force kids to go to school at all, I think this would be very valid. Then we wouldn’t have to worry about the government teaching our kids things we don’t want our kids learning, whether that be evolution or jesus is lord. It would be a good thread for GQ. ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/32 "2000-06-20T17:45:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > I never said that the government should tell us we _have_ to pray, or _how_ to pray. I wouldn’t want that either. My point is that the government shouldn’t be telling us what to do AT ALL. If someone wants to pray, they should be allowed to (and they shouldn’t have to hide it), if someone doesn’t want to pray, they shouldn’t have to (and they shouldn’t be punished for it)…why do we need a law to tell us this? That is my question. > \*\* But that’s the whole point. School prayer means school mandated prayer: “We will now pray.” That is the school (run by the government) telling the children when to pray. And when a teacher leads the prayer, that is the teacher telling the children how to pray. Praying in school is NOT illegal. Every student is allowed to pray in school as long as it doesn’t disturb classwork. You can read the Bible on the school bus, you can have prayer groups during breaks or lunch, you can have a bible club that meets at school. You don’t have to hide it. The government restricts none of these. The only thing that is restricted is the school or teachers **requiring** the students to pray. pinqy ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/33 "2000-06-20T17:47:19Z")
oh sure, but you slaughter one little goat at school and people go bezerk… ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/34 "2000-06-20T18:02:56Z")
> [@](#): > > **I never said that the government should tell us we _have_ to pray, or _how_ to pray. I wouldn’t want that either. My point is that the government shouldn’t be telling us what to do AT ALL. If someone wants to pray, they should be allowed to (and they shouldn’t have to hide it), if someone doesn’t want to pray, they shouldn’t have to (and they shouldn’t be punished for it)…why do we need a law to tell us this? That is my question.** Because in cases such as that in Santa Fe TX (the SC case to which this conversation refers), the school (read - state-funded, state-sponsored, government school) WAS telling children when and how they should pray. Some of those children and their families objected. That is where the lawsuits (yes - lawsuit **S** - this is not the first time this particular school district has been sued for mandating school prayer) originated. As someone whose siblings were hounded in elementary school for the unforgivable sin of being _\_ Methodist in a bible-thumping Baptist district, as the step-mother of a Jewish child in a more liberal but no less Christian school system, I have experienced why these laws against school-mandated prayer are absolutely necessary. Not just a good idea - it’s the Constitution! Children can and do pray in school any time and any place that they like - as long as they don’t disrupt or disturb other students. The SC has repeatedly upheld the right of students to pray, to gather for religious activities in **non-mandated** forums, so on & so forth. The only things that are proscribed are things that actively PROMOTE religion or a specific religion. Namely, teaching pseudo-scientific balderdash such as Fundie Christian Creationism and inflicting mandatory prayer. RE: OP Yes, absolutely. I think they should teach ALL of the Creationisms. In the appropriate classroom setting of ‘Comparative Religions’. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/35 "2000-06-20T18:04:50Z")
> [@](#): > > My point is that the government shouldn’t be telling us what to do AT ALL. Fine with me, with respect to matters of religion, so long as you mean it all the way. But don’t go telling me that it’s bad for the Federal government to interfere in such matters, but perfectly OK for local governments to do so. If a teacher comes into my (hypothetical) child’s classroom and leads the kids in prayer, that teacher is a government agent, and is telling my kid what to do, in a matter of no direct relevance to the education she’s supposed to be providing. Ditto if she tells one of the other kids to get up and lead a prayer, or demands the class’s attention when a classmate spontaneously gets up and begins praying. The Bill of Rights exists, in large part, to keep government off our backs in ways such as this. If you like, it’s one part of government (the Constitution, interpreted by the courts) acting to keep another part of government (whether Federal, state, or local) from interfering with your business and mine - in this case, the religious education of our children. BTW, while the phrase “separation of church and state” is a descriptive phrase of Jefferson’s, most everything it describes can be found in the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment. In this case, for instance, for the teacher to expose my child to prayers I hadn’t approved of interferes with _my_ free exercise of my faith - which includes my right to give my child the religious upbringing I choose, without anyone else’s interference, especially the government’s. And to the extent that those prayers support one religious point of view over another (including the absence of belief in a deity), the government would be acting to give that religious point of view a privileged status. That’s ‘establishment of religion’. Nobody’s impartial about religion. I’m certainly not. Noggin, you’d probably not want me teaching your kids about what it means to be a Christian, and I certainly wouldn’t want you teaching my kids about it. I’ll teach 'em myself, and take them to a church of my choosing. But I don’t want a bunch of people whose religious judgment I don’t trust, or their kids, being given a leg up by government to teach my child what Christianity is supposedly about. And that’s from a fellow Christian. I’m sure practitioners of other faiths, and atheists, feel just as strongly on this issue. The schools are theirs, too, and they have every right to trust that those schools won’t be used to teach their kids about religion in a way that bothers them. ---
**Author:** ![noggins74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecae2f/32.png) [@noggins74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/noggins74)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/36 "2000-06-20T18:08:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > now, if you are trying to make the argument that the government shouldn’t force kids to go to school at all, I think this would be very valid. Then we wouldn’t have to worry about the government teaching our kids things we don’t want our kids learning, whether that be evolution or jesus is lord. > > It would be a good thread for GQ. > \*\* I don’t think it’s absurd to say that children _should_ be educated, and for the government to take responsibilty to see that children receive an education. Educating our children benefits our society as a whole, so there is reason for the government to be concerned about it. In matters of personal behavior, such as prayer, however, which do not affect the quality of the education received, I don’t think the government should be telling us what to do or how to do it. Again, to make myself clear, I’m not saying that prayer should be forced…just that if students want to pray they should be allowed. For instance, if a group of students wanted to hold a prayer meeting that was completely voluntary, they should be allowed to do it. Students that don’t want to participate don’t have to, but the option is there for those that want it. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. I’m too new here…don’t know what GQ is. Enlighten me. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/37 "2000-06-20T18:12:23Z")
I meant General Questions. Maybe it would be a great debate… I think kids generally can have prayer groups after school and the like using public facilities. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/38 "2000-06-20T18:25:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > > Again, to make myself clear, I’m not saying that prayer should be forced…just that if students want to pray they should be allowed. For instance, if a group of students wanted to hold a prayer meeting that was completely voluntary, they should be allowed to do it. Students that don’t want to participate don’t have to, but the option is there for those that want it. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. > I’m too new here…don’t know what GQ is. Enlighten me. > \*\* But this is Exactly what the Supreme Court is saying. Students ARE allowed to (and do) hold voluntary prayer meetings. It happens all the time. No one here has argued that point. Some schools have Bible study clubs that are treated just like any other after school activity. School grounds can be used. The only thing I and others are arguing against is the school designating someone to pray or a moment of silence specifically to pray. Basically, you’re not arguing against anything that actually exists. Oh, and GQ stands for “General Questions” one of the other SD message boards. pinqy ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/39 "2000-06-20T18:31:43Z")
**noggins74,** > [@](#): > > For those of you who say evolution is supported by the “scientific evidence”, I’d like to know what evidence you’re talking about. Since you obviously are new here, someone should show you to the “library” and allow you to do some research. Feel free to examine the [Talk Origins](http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html) site in great detail, then return with some enlightened questions for discussion. As you will see, the evidence for evolution, like gravity, is simply overwhelming. > [@](#): > > There are many holes in the theory of evolution, so to say it is the best theory isn’t saying much. I’m afraid you are the victim of someone’s religious propaganda in this instance. No branch of science is perfect, but the theory of evolution is as well supported by the evidence as any tenet of biology. Perhaps after you have completed your research we can debate the perceived weaknesses. Post what you consider a “hole” and I will attempt a rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866/40 "2000-06-20T18:36:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Again, to make myself clear, I’m not saying that prayer should be forced…just that if students want to pray they should be allowed. For instance, if a group of students wanted to hold a prayer meeting that was completely voluntary, they should be allowed to do it. Students that don’t want to participate don’t have to, but the option is there for those that want it. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. Heck, there’s not even a debate there. Groups like the ACLU, People For the American Way, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and so forth, think that sort of thing’s perfectly fine. And awhile back, Congress passed the Equal Access Act, which, among other things, said that student-organized religious groups should be able to meet after school and during other free periods, on the same basis as the chess club and whatnot. It’s not too much to ask at all; the kids can just go do it. Every once in awhile some incident occurs where a teacher or school administrator doesn’t understand the law, and stops a kid from praying at lunch or whatnot. The Falwells and the Limbaughs blow it up into a liberal assault on freedom of religion, when it’s just one stupid isolated incident. I won’t tell you not to believe them; I’ll just say that ‘test the spirits’ applies to these bozos as well as anything else you might have reason to be skeptical of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/22866.md?page=3)