Should [cursive] writing be dropped from school curricula [ed. title]

Great Debates
41

I was interested to find that my own children’s school has children learning written letters from the beginning, though in the beginning they make them with a “tail” and do not connect them until later. They write with pencils until they get some fluency at writing and then they graduate to large-barrel fountain pens. Once they can write with those, they graduate again to ball points or whatever strikes their fancy.

Eldest had already learned to print before we moved, so he is being gently led from one method to the other at this moment. Youngest will start off with written letters. The letters are slightly different here, as are the numbers. Which is why everybody in Holland squints at my numbers “8” and “9” and “6”.

Writing practice is excellent, cheap exercise in small motor skills. It is also for many children a vital part of learning to read. There is an argument to be made that it is additionally good exercise in learning to think formally and to express your thoughts clearly. It is also not a terrible introduction to the idea that regular practice improves performance, because the results are usually pretty easy to see and come fairly quickly.

It is possible that all these benefits would also accrue to children who were systematically taught to type instead of to write; but my own experience is that this is not what is happening. Handwriting is not being dropped in favor of typing or keyboarding; instead it is just being dropped.

There are and have always been children for whom writing is more difficult to learn, mostly because of small motor skills issues. Sometimes it points to more complicated issues, especially in the early years. For them of course the switch to keyboarding is a great help.

42

What I suspect, in the next century, is that cursive will be dropped in the schools anyway. Cursive writing has been so integral to our past that discarding it regardless of its lack of utility would be revolutionary. Even the revolutionary founding fathers of America couldn’t refrain from cursive’s detractive and unneccessary use in the Declaration of Independance 300 years after the printing press had been invented. Note that the title of that document was printed. They had the means to print the whole document, but for some misguided sense of tradition used longhand. We should guard against such conservative sentiment when evaluating the disposition of our resources in the expensive field of our children’s education.

43

I learned printing in Grade I, started Cursive in Grade II. Handwriting was not my best subject, but I eventually became sufficiently interested to play at calligraphy. Learned typing at summer school–a manual typewriter with blank keys, in an un air-conditioned classroom near the papermill in Pasadena, Texas. (I did badly but have earned my liviing with a keyboard for many years.)

I occasionally take minutes at meetings. That is, summarize what happens–not transcribe every word. I’ll often start out printing. But, as I go faster, I realize that modified cursive works far better.

Don’t professors (or TA’s) still hand out those infamous blue books? Printing every word would slow down a quick mind.

44

[QUOTE=aruvqan]
hand printed fonts
[/QUOTE]

With your extensive knowledge and interest in this subject, I’m stunned at your use of the strange, triple oxymoron “hand-printed fonts” instead of the the simple and correct “scripts.”

45

I think it’s a mistake to think that writing by hand is somehow obsolete.

The error, however, is this strange way in which “printing” and “cursive” are taught traditionally.

The “print” form is not and should not be considered a handwritten form at all. Our hands are not optimized for drawing upright balls and sticks quickly.

And there is no reason to confuse students by introducing a “print” script and a “cursive” script (both terms being incorrect from a strict point of view – “printing” is something done by a machine and “cursive” letters do not link up). The matter is made worse by the choice of a “cursive” script based on engraver’s copperplate with ridiculous curlicues – it’s not designed as an ordinary handwritten form!

The answer is to skip the “print” phase altogether and go straight to a simple, unadorned italic form.

46

I learned how to print and write cursive during my first few years of school, and it’s a damn good thing, as I spent the next twenty years of school fricking taking notes, hello!

How could anyone not see that being able to write rapidly (cursive = running, and it’s a damn sight faster than printing) on paper is a very, very good thing? No, it’s not just to sign names, it’s for any situation in life where there isn’t a keyboard directly in front of you and you have to store information in a permanent fashion on paper.

You might as well say that you don’t need to learn how to do basic arithmetic in their head because we have calculators now. Not everyone will or should have access to such a thing or the time to use it in all situations at all times in their adult life, to say nothing of their school career.

47

I can’t read most cursive writing. I’ve tried, but it’s a skill that just somehow eludes me. I can read printed text very fast, but I can’t read most cursive.

It doesn’t come up as an issue very often. Maybe a few times a year, I’ll get a handwritten letter that I have to get Mr. Neville to read to me. But I don’t write letters (I correspond via email), so I don’t get many, either. Bills and all the rest of the mail that I deal with is printed. Thinking about it, I don’t think I’ve subjected anyone to my attempts at cursive writing since at least 2000, and possibly longer ago than that.

Not being able to type well or quickly, though, would be a major issue- that would affect my life several times a day, as opposed to a few times a year.

I usually printed in the blue books- I don’t write cursive particularly fast, so that advantage isn’t there.

48

As for teach cursive for its supernumerary advantages, such as fine motor control, I heard the same types of arguments for teaching Latin, so I don’t really buy that.

I’m amazed, however, that so many people say that printing is faster than writing cursive. I thought the whole point of cursive (as opposed to an ornate script like copperplate) was “smoothing” the written word, so to speak, to make writing faster. No, my handwriting isn’t all that legible, but when I’m taking notes in a class, at a meeting, over the phone, whatever, I’m writing in cursive. Granted, though, I often have to transcribe my notes into a word processor if I’ll want to read them months later.

I know that it’s fairly common in university classrooms these days to students to input their notes directly in their laptops, but I can’t see laptops or their equivalent being that ubiquitous in the near future. That’s why I keep a notepad next to my phone.

49

[QUOTE=FRDE]
I suppose we might as well not teach kids arithmetic as they’ll just be using calculators in real life.
[/QUOTE]

I was just going to compare learning cursive to learning multiplication tables. I’m sure there are lots of people who happily go through life not needing to know, off the top of their heads, what 7x8 is. They pull out a calculator the few times they run across that. I think that’s a total shame. Some things are basic building blocks. Even if you don’t use them every day, they give you the ability to build on them. Multiplication, cursive writing, typing (now), and spelling all fall into that catagory for me.

50

[QUOTE=matt_mcl]
I learned how to print and write cursive during my first few years of school, and it’s a damn good thing, as I spent the next twenty years of school fricking taking notes, hello!
[/QUOTE]

I was about to point out the same thing.

I am really surprised to read a lot of these comments.

I’m not exaggerating at all when I say that every single person I see at work every day carries around a notebook, into which they take notes during meetings.

I am very fast at Word, I type 70 wpm and use keyboard commands extensively and am familiar with all the functions, and I use it for almost all of my written communication needs - except notetaking. There are just too many squiggles you need to make, too many times you need to go back and write in the margins, or draw little diagrams, or whatever, to really work on a word processor.

I imagine my workplace is somewhat unique, in that not everybody in the world uses a notebook and pen every day (although I have never worked in an office, either in the public or private sector, where people have not taken extensive notes by hand during meetings). But I know there are quite a lot of us, and an inability to take effective notes during a meeting would definitely be a liability for anybody trying to work here. I just can’t imagine laptops becoming so ubiquitous that there would be no need at all for note-taking. If it does happen, it certainly won’t be for a long time, and we would put our kids at a disadvantage if we scrapped writing from the curriculum before we reach that age.

51

Better would be to skip block letter printing. Nobody needs that. Everything should be in cursive.

52

[QUOTE=According to Pliny]
Better would be to skip block letter printing. Nobody needs that. Everything should be in cursive.
[/QUOTE]
Not all cursives are overly legible. Block printing has the advantage that the characters are usually unambiguous regarding each other; hence the common requirement of using block letters on informational documents.

53

Just out of interest, how many education professionals are contributing to this thread? I’m certainly no such thing.

I ask because I’m aware that it’s very easy to criticise something from a consumer/recipient/bystander point of view, without really understanding the full impact of changing it, but also, I have become very acutely aware just recently that nothing much in the school curriculum (here at least) is particularly accidental - if it’s there, it’s because professionals in the field of education have put it there, as the end result of careful consideration and thorough analysis. Do we really think that as a random collection of debaters on a message board, we know better?

54

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
if it’s there, it’s because professionals in the field of education have put it there, as the end result of careful consideration and thorough analysis. Do we really think that as a random collection of debaters on a message board, we know better?
[/QUOTE]

How is America’s professional army doing in Iraq ? Seems like the strategy is being left to the non-military people.

Most of us have no idea how to teach writing to students. But each one of us knows the value of cursive writing to our own lives.

55

[QUOTE=acsenray]
The answer is to skip the “print” phase altogether and go straight to a simple, unadorned italic form.
[/QUOTE]

This seems like what my teaching was trying to do… give up on cursive writing altogether. It messed me up when I had to deal with a school system that still used it, so I feel that the best bet would be to do the whole thing all at once.

But people will fight.

Here is a sample I found of the “Cursive Italic” system I was taught as a child…

http://www.drawyourworld.com/i_styles/italiclink.gif

However, not all the linkages work out that well, needless to say.

56

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
How is America’s professional army doing in Iraq ? Seems like the strategy is being left to the non-military people.
[/quote]
I’m not sure that’s a particularly useful comparison to anything we’re discussing here.

Okay, but there are any number of things kids are taught at school that subsets of them will not find any practical use for when they leave - the curriculum would be practically non-existent if we excised sections of it just because some people can raise their hands and honestly say those particular sections had no value to them.

57

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
I’m not sure that’s a particularly useful comparison to anything we’re discussing here.

Okay, but there are any number of things kids are taught at school that subsets of them will not find any practical use for when they leave - the curriculum would be practically non-existent if we excised sections of it just because some people can raise their hands and honestly say those particular sections had no value to them.
[/QUOTE]

And that is why we have debates. Even the minority should be heard.

58

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
And that is why we have debates. Even the minority should be heard.
[/QUOTE]
Nobody is trying to stop you being heard, as far as I can tell.

59

[QUOTE=cowgirl]
I was about to point out the same thing.

I am really surprised to read a lot of these comments.

I’m not exaggerating at all when I say that every single person I see at work every day carries around a notebook, into which they take notes during meetings.

I am very fast at Word, I type 70 wpm and use keyboard commands extensively and am familiar with all the functions, and I use it for almost all of my written communication needs - except notetaking. There are just too many squiggles you need to make, too many times you need to go back and write in the margins, or draw little diagrams, or whatever, to really work on a word processor.

I imagine my workplace is somewhat unique, in that not everybody in the world uses a notebook and pen every day (although I have never worked in an office, either in the public or private sector, where people have not taken extensive notes by hand during meetings). But I know there are quite a lot of us, and an inability to take effective notes during a meeting would definitely be a liability for anybody trying to work here. I just can’t imagine laptops becoming so ubiquitous that there would be no need at all for note-taking. If it does happen, it certainly won’t be for a long time, and we would put our kids at a disadvantage if we scrapped writing from the curriculum before we reach that age.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think your workplace is all that unique. It sounds pretty similar to mine in regards to note taking. I’m another one that’s surprised so many people don’t ever use cursive. We use it all the time at work! I don’t see it going away any time soon.

I suppose I could drag my laptop around with me everywhere, but it’s a lot easier to grab a pad of paper and pen (along with the coffee, files, and other materials I have to juggle) on my way to a meeting. Plus, even quiet keyboards can be loud when you have 20 or more people type, type, typing away while in a meeting.

Then I may have handouts in the meeting that I’d like to jot quick notes on.

And, after the meeting, I frequently have stacks of paper (memos, presentations, copy, proposals) etc. for review and comment. I use the standard proofreading edit marks, but that’s only for proofing comments. I often have to add detailed notes to those pieces. Despite a several year effort to implement an electronic mark up process at my company, paper review isn’t going away any time soon.

I suppose I could print all that, but it would take longer than writing cursive and be much more work for my hands (which already cramp up after reviewing and commenting on pages and pages of paper).

60

I know ‘hell’, ‘damn’, ‘bit-’