# Should deafness always be considered a disability? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 9, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417 "2016-05-09T17:57:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/21 "2016-05-10T17:06:33Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > The Kansas School for the Deaf also has an interscholastic football program, and plays a schedule of games against “regular” high schools in its area. I once asked someone from there how the players can call the signals, to coordinate the snap on offense. It seems that they have a drummer with a big kettle drum on the sidelines, and he bangs out a beat for the play call, and the players on the field can feel the percussion of the drum through their feet. In the huddle, the quarterback signals his team with three fingers, to snap the ball on the third beat. Actually thats not totally true. Yes, they have some athletic teams but KSD is such a small school they really only play other deaf schools, which makes for some LONG trips to other deaf schools in Missouri, Iowa, Arkansas, Colorado, Oklahoma, and even Minnesota. The only non-deaf schools they play are some small private schools. [Football](http://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/kansas-school-for-the-deaf-jackrabbits-%28olathe,ks%29/football-fall-15/schedule.htm) [Basketball](http://www.ksdeaf.org/athletics/basketball)As you can see they do very poorly against non-deaf schools. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/22 "2016-05-10T17:12:46Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Actually thats not totally true. Yes, they have some athletic teams but KSD is such a small school they really only play other deaf schools, which makes for some LONG trips to other deaf schools in Missouri, Iowa, Arkansas, Colorado, Oklahoma, and even Minnesota. The only non-deaf schools they play are some small private schools. > [Football](http://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/kansas-school-for-the-deaf-jackrabbits-%28olathe,ks%29/football-fall-15/schedule.htm) > [Basketball](http://www.ksdeaf.org/athletics/basketball)As you can see they do very poorly against non-deaf schools. [Arkansas School For The Deaf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkansas_School_for_the_Deaf) School mascot is the Leopard. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/23 "2016-05-10T17:22:33Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > It’s possible they were the MHHI class, so each kid had a secondary diagnosis, from autism, which could be mild, to dyslexia. If that were that case, they may have been taking the medals because of just a couple of kids. > > Usually disabilities multiply-- when you are Deaf, having a severe vision impairment, autism, or something, is multiplicatory, but sometimes not, especially when the second impairment is something like CP that mostly affects the lower half of a person body, but doesn’t interfere with signing, then they are just additive. Deafness and dyslexia are generally speaking, multiplicatory, because it interferes with a channel a person can use to communicate with non-signers, but in a special environment, like a Deaf school, it’s more additive. > > There may have been several kids there with some serious combinations of disabilities, but a few who happened to have combinations that didn’t interfere with the tasks at hand, like Deafness and dyslexia, or Deafness and mild autism. > > The thing is, the type of job the competition prepares these kids for is what MHHI kids realistically need to prepare for. A Deaf person who is functionally illiterate can at best aspire to cleaning motels, stocking shelves, or busing tables. Some of them might be very bright, and pick up the jobs way faster than other people, but their neuro-untypicalities hold them back. > > Anyway, if the OP thinks back, probably it wasn’t the whole Deaf team taking the medals. It was probably a few kids on the team carrying a disproportionate about of the weight. > > The competition may need a rule that if an individual wins more than _n_ events in a year, they have to retire from the competition, or if they have first, second and third place awards, assign points (3 for first, etc.) and retire competitors who earn more than _n_ points. That gets rid of the ringers. > > I means, the Deaf school should be allowed to field a team, and there probably already is a rule that a student has to have a secondary diagnosis, or spent a certain amount of time in resource, or remedial or self-contained classes. > > But if there isn’t, there should be, and your nephew’s parents should say something. > > I have worked with both normal Deaf people (I went to Gallaudet University for a year to learn ASL so I could become an interpreter), and I have worked with very disabled people when I did community living services. I don’t know a Deaf person who would want to be mistaken for a low-functioning autistic, even for the sake of taking a bunch of medals. I did notice a couple seemed to have disabilities in other areas but most appeared quite normal. Judging by the large number of kids they had I think it was most of their high school aged students. The school only has about 123 students k-12+. This [pag](http://www.ksdeaf.org/campus-life/activities-and-clubs)e lists some of the student activities with Job Olympics being one of them (bottom of page). I totally agree on the idea of their being some rule to keep out the ringers. But Job Olympics isnt exactly a tight run competitive organization with stiff rules. They seem more keen on large numbers than on dealing with rules on fairness and would rather rely on teams to regulate themselves. Like “we are only here for the fun”. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/24 "2016-05-10T17:33:11Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > There are really two separate questions here. The one the OP asks, and the one many poeple are responding to. > > It’s certainly true that MANY (not all) deaf people do not consider deafness a handicap- far from it. To put it crudely, if there existed a magic pill that could cure blindness, almost all blind people would take it. If there were a pill that could instantly cure paralysis, almost all people in wheelchairs would take it. But if there were a pill to cure deafness? A LOT of deaf people would refuse it. Many of them are PROUD of the community and the culture they’ve created, and wouldn’t want to give it up. No blind person ever says, “I hope my kids are blind,” but more than a few deaf people sort of hope their kids are deaf. > > So, the the questions, “DO the deaf themselves regard deafness as a disability,” the answer is “In MANY cases, no.” In case anyone has trouble understanding this, the reason is pretty simple. Deafness creates linguistic isolation. You can’t use spoken English or Chinese effortlessly, so deaf people use sign language. And this creates an isolated language, and the isolated language creates a community of people who use that language. If we had a group of people who could only speak Croatian, and had some physiological problem that made it impossible for them to learn to speak English, and people who could only learn to speak Croatian were born every so often into English speaking families, then those Croatian speaking people would form a Croatian community with other Croatian speakers. Even if they could read and write English just fine, and were only unable to speak it or understand it. This is why there’s a “Deaf Community”, but not a “Blind Community”. Yes, there are schools for the blind, and blind people understand the problems of other blind people, and blindness does create some isolation from written language and visual media. But a blind person can have a casual chat with a sighted person. Deafness is different, because it creates linguistic isolation. And sure, there are plenty of other disabilities that cause linguistic problems, but those disabilities make it just as hard for those people to communicate with each other as it does to communicate with everyone else. So when Deaf people talk about how they want a deaf kid, or how they’re glad to be deaf, they just mean that they wan their kids to be part of the same community, and that they’re happy to be part of the community they’re actually part of. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/25 "2016-05-10T18:49:34Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > This is why there’s a “Deaf Community”, but not a “Blind Community”. Yes, there are schools for the blind, and blind people understand the problems of other blind people, and blindness does create some isolation from written language and visual media. But a blind person can have a casual chat with a sighted person. Deafness is different, because it creates linguistic isolation. And sure, there are plenty of other disabilities that cause linguistic problems, but those disabilities make it just as hard for those people to communicate with each other as it does to communicate with everyone else. > > So when Deaf people talk about how they want a deaf kid, or how they’re glad to be deaf, they just mean that they wan their kids to be part of the same community, and that they’re happy to be part of the community they’re actually part of. QFT - my oldest sister is Deaf, and is very, very close to her friends. I would say closer to them than to most of her family. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/26 "2016-05-11T13:24:04Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > In case anyone has trouble understanding this, the reason is pretty simple. Deafness creates linguistic isolation. You can’t use spoken English or Chinese effortlessly, so deaf people use sign language. And this creates an isolated language, and the isolated language creates a community of people who use that language. > > If we had a group of people who could only speak Croatian, and had some physiological problem that made it impossible for them to learn to speak English, and people who could only learn to speak Croatian were born every so often into English speaking families, then those Croatian speaking people would form a Croatian community with other Croatian speakers. Even if they could read and write English just fine, and were only unable to speak it or understand it. > > This is why there’s a “Deaf Community”, but not a “Blind Community”. Yes, there are schools for the blind, and blind people understand the problems of other blind people, and blindness does create some isolation from written language and visual media. But a blind person can have a casual chat with a sighted person. Deafness is different, because it creates linguistic isolation. And sure, there are plenty of other disabilities that cause linguistic problems, but those disabilities make it just as hard for those people to communicate with each other as it does to communicate with everyone else. > > So when Deaf people talk about how they want a deaf kid, or how they’re glad to be deaf, they just mean that they wan their kids to be part of the same community, and that they’re happy to be part of the community they’re actually part of. I noticed that among some deaf people I used to be around. One woman, lets call her “Sue”, was deaf but it was because of a childhood illness so she was the only person in her family who was deaf. Another, lets call her “Ann” was from a deaf family. Her parents were deaf, so were 2 of her 3 kids. She said at family get togethers about half are deaf and half are not. Both were friends thru going to KSD together but were different because Sue married a hearing man and Ann did not because Ann was more tied to the deaf community. BTW, Olathe Kansas, home to KSD, has a very large deaf community. Many businesses cater to them with touch screens and interpreters. Now add onto that most school districts will accommodate deafness their is less of a need for deaf kids to attend KSD yet its odd because those “outsider” kids are not accepted as well into the “deaf” world. Their was one girl who was deaf but went to a regular high school and because of that, learned to lip read well and spoke clearly. Yet when her parents would take her to deaf-teen events out in Olathe the kids really shunned her because she couldnt sign as fast or understood the culture and ASL as much. So yeah, the deaf community can be kind of hard sometimes. Also deaf workers can be difficult because sometimes they will pretend to not understand instructions. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/27 "2016-05-11T13:38:47Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > QFT - my oldest sister is Deaf, and is very, very close to her friends. I would say closer to them than to most of her family. But that’s all changing now with texting because now people do not need to actually speak to each other. So no more needing to use TTY machines. No writing out notes. No needing interpreters. And NOW, they have developed machines that can interpret sign language and convert it to text and send that! [LINK](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/for-deaf-texting-offers-new-portal-to-world/) So I see in the future a breaking down of that tight deaf community. Do you see that? ---
**Author:** ![moojja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@moojja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moojja)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/28 "2016-05-11T18:13:44Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > But that’s all changing now with texting because now people do not need to actually speak to each other. > > So no more needing to use TTY machines. No writing out notes. No needing interpreters. > > And NOW, they have developed machines that can interpret sign language and convert it to text and send that! [LINK](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/for-deaf-texting-offers-new-portal-to-world/) > > So I see in the future a breaking down of that tight deaf community. > > Do you see that? That is already happening to some extent to due normal high schools taking in deaf students, advancement of hearing aides. The use of cochlear implants for example can be a very controversial topic in the Deaf community. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/29 "2016-05-11T18:29:15Z")
Cochlear implants are “controversial” only because parents of a deaf child who opt to get a cochlear implant for their kid often have wildly unrealistic expectations. For some people it can give enough input that they can reliably understand speech in person or over the phone. For many others it can’t. Yes, you’ve got some auditory input, but if you can’t understand normal speech then you’re deaf. Deafness isn’t just any old hearing loss. In practice it means hearing loss in such a way that you can’t reliably understand speech. It doesn’t matter that you can hear car alarms and trucks rumbling by or music or dog whistles, if you can’t understand someone if they’re talking to you with their back turned, then you’re deaf. Point taken about technology, although it doesn’t replace the spoken word. I’ve been a lot more involved in my deaf nephew’s life once he got on facebook and started posting captioned videos and such. I can sign a little, but I can’t read sign fast enough to understand a normal signed conversation. But my nephew isn’t isolated from his parents at least–my brother is a Deaf Ed teacher and my sister in law is an interpreter. But lots of kids can barely communicate with their own parents. And at my brother’s school lots of his deaf kids come from spanish speaking households…so there’s a double whammy. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/30 "2016-05-11T18:43:11Z")
> [@moojja](#): > > That is already happening to some extent to due normal high schools taking in deaf students, advancement of hearing aides. The use of cochlear implants for example can be a very controversial topic in the Deaf community. I am not deaf, and have no personal qualifications for judging how effective these implants are. Of my deaf colleagues, one has an implant and finds it very helpful- but he still finds it necessary to sign and read lips, because the implant does NOT give him anything like perfect hearing. The other colleague tried implants years ago, and hated them. It’s hard for a deaf person to explain how anything “sounds” when the implant first goes in, but apparently, the sounds CAN be jarring, unpleasant and even disturbing. So, I can only surmise that implants are a good tool to have available, but are no panacea, even for the people who like them. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/31 "2016-05-11T19:23:06Z")
How difficult is it for someone deaf from birth to learn to ‘hear’ with Cochlear implants? Is it even possible? When my nephew was around 2 years old, he was having difficulty learning to talk, eventually traced to ear problems. (They were fixed, and he hasn’t shut up in the 30+ years since then.) I know we were told that if that had not been found & treated early enough, he might have had severe problems learning to talk later – that the human brain is optimized to learn language as an infant, but that part of the brain atrophies or is used for other purposes later. (So that a toddler in a multi-lingual household can learn a 2nd language easily, while an adult needs much more effort to learn a second language.) Was that an accurate statement, or is it dated medical info? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/32 "2016-05-11T19:45:15Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Cochlear implants are “controversial” only because parents of a deaf child who opt to get a cochlear implant for their kid often have wildly unrealistic expectations. Okay, some people don’t want to get cochlear implants or don’t want them for their kids. But some people also like to opine on how _nobody_ should get them. > [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > How difficult is it for someone deaf from birth to learn to ‘hear’ with Cochlear implants? Is it even possible? > > When my nephew was around 2 years old, he was having difficulty learning to talk, eventually traced to ear problems. (They were fixed, and he hasn’t shut up in the 30+ years since then.) I know we were told that if that had not been found & treated early enough, he might have had severe problems learning to talk later – that the human brain is optimized to learn language as an infant, but that part of the brain atrophies or is used for other purposes later. (So that a toddler in a multi-lingual household can learn a 2nd language easily, while an adult needs much more effort to learn a second language.) > > Was that an accurate statement, or is it dated medical info? That’s the basic gist. “Used for other purposes” is correct though, nothing atrophies, but later on it can’t readily be repurposed for what it was originally intended to. The “problem” with cochlear implants is that they allow some people to hear speech, but it sounds robotic. [Here’s one example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpKKYBkJ9Hw), but I can’t say how accurate it is. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/33 "2016-05-11T21:13:23Z")
> [@moojja](#): > > That is already happening to some extent to due normal high schools taking in deaf students, advancement of hearing aides. The use of cochlear implants for example can be a very controversial topic in the Deaf community. My sister lost her s\*\*\* when I mentioned the implants. She stopped wearing her hearing aids in 9th grade because she (and her friends) were convinced anyone wearing hearing aids was “just trying to be Hearing”, ang not accepting their Deafness. My sister and her peers LOVE texting and social media, but there is still a disconnect. hard to explain except to say, it’s very similar to communicating with someone that learned English as a second language (even though they use ASL, based on English words). It can be difficult for people to understand their emails/texts if you have never spoken to a Deaf person before. I’ll see if I can find a good example and post it. I am very used to it, having grown up with her my whole life, but to an outsider, it reads very broken and disjointed. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417/34 "2016-05-12T02:44:32Z")
I just had another thought about the games described by the OP. Now, I wasn’t there and I don’t know exactly what the games entailed. I’m GUESSING that most of the students involved have serious mental or physical handicaps, and that their schools are designed to teach these kids basic independent living skills (hygiene, dressing themselves, simple cooking, et al.) and maybe some simple job skills. So, a vacuuming contest might help prepare a kid with Down’s Syndrome to get a job as a janitor. A book shelving contest might help a girl with Cerebral Palsy learn to be a library aide. I get that. A block stacking contest might be good preparation for being a stock boy at a retail store. But if I were an otherwise healthy, smart deaf kid, and I found that I’d been entered in contests like that, I’d be FURIOUS! I’d feel INSULTED! I’d be yelling, “THIS is all you think I’m capable of???” Would otherwise “normal” deaf kids have willingly taken part in a contest for kids with serious learning disabilities? Or would they feel patronized and storm out? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-deafness-always-be-considered-a-disability/754417.md?page=1)