# Should democrats rethink "defund police" and push for law and order? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 15, 2020, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677 "2020-09-15T12:04:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/183 "2020-09-22T17:59:37Z")
The ACLU has already come up with a great replacement: “Divest and Re-invest”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/184 "2020-09-22T18:01:47Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > That isn’t a position I think you should be in, and I am just looking out for you. Thank you for listing me out of my depression-That was hilarious! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/185 "2020-09-22T18:02:36Z")
No, but DrDeth said that he was getting mixed messages from this thread, so I asked a direct question to those participating in it if they have different feelings on it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/186 "2020-09-22T18:03:53Z")
I did? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/187 "2020-09-22T18:05:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No one? Maybe no one _in this thread,_ but trust me, “Defund the Police” means many things to many people. ETA: Actually, I guess I did read that wrong. My bad, it sounded like you were. However, even outside this thread, I think that the message has been pretty consistent, outside of nutpicking and the fact that many people go to a protest and shout slogans because they are not eloquent and erudite enough to form policy proposals. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/188 "2020-09-22T18:08:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Missing the point, it is not the slogan for Biden or most of the Democrats in power, I think AOC uses it. She gets a lot of coverage. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Does anyone in this thread feel that “Defund the police” means anything other than deemphasizing the role of the police as a primary and only means of meeting issues that should be cared for by social programs and services? I understand that’s the intended meaning. And it is what most of the people backing “defund the police” want. It’s not what the words mean, though. The words aren’t really even shorthand for the goals. I feel they are bad, misleading words, and should be abandoned by anyone who wants to shift resources from police to other ways of addressing issues that touch on public order. (Like traffic control, keeping the mentally ill from hurting themselves and others, etc.) > [@DrDeth](#): > > The ACLU has already come up with a great replacement: “Divest and Re-invest”. Thanks! That’s a fine slogan that I can get behind. This is the first time I’ve seen it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/189 "2020-09-22T18:09:30Z")
Yeah, the guy I am referring to is an avowed communist, but he’s not a nut. I think you are ignoring the use of this slogan. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/190 "2020-09-22T18:14:25Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I understand that’s the intended meaning. And it is what most of the people backing “defund the police” want. It’s not what the words mean, though. The words aren’t really even shorthand for the goals. I feel they are bad, misleading words, and should be abandoned by anyone who wants to shift resources from police to other ways of addressing issues that touch on public order. Do you give the same criticism to Pro-lifers, as their only focus is on ensuring that pregnancies come to term, or to people who say that they are anti-regulation, who couldn’t actually name a regulation that they actually would want to rescind, or to Christians, who do not follow in the footsteps of Christ? I don’t disagree that it would be a bad idea for a serious politician to take up the slogan themselves. I just don’t understand the hate for a grassroots movement that found a slogan that motivated people. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yeah, the guy I am referring to is an avowed communist, but he’s not a nut. I think you are ignoring the use of this slogan. I think that you are making far too much of the use of this slogan. I mean, how many people even use it anymore? If everyone stopped using it, and no one ever uttered it again, it would still be used against democrats because it was ever uttered by a protester fed up with the police terrorizing and brutalizing their neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/191 "2020-09-22T18:18:32Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Thanks! That’s a fine slogan that I can get behind. This is the first time I’ve seen it. And that’s the sort of thing that kinda bothers me. In the focus on the slogan that they don’t like, people ignore everything else. That’s the 3rd time that DrDeth has used that slogan in this thread, and I know that they’ve used it at least a few other times in other threads on the subject. I really don’t think that the problem is with the people who are using the slogan “Defund the police.” They are not nearly as obsessed with it as those who criticize it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/192 "2020-09-22T18:19:38Z")
This is a long thread. No, I haven’t read all of it. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you give the same criticism to Pro-lifers, as their only focus is on ensuring that pregnancies come to term, or to people who say that they are anti-regulation, who couldn’t actually name a regulation that they actually would want to rescind, or to Christians, who do not follow in the footsteps of Christ? No, because all of those sound good. I mean, who isn’t in favor if life, in some abstract way? The issue with “defund the police” isn’t that it’s not precise, it’s that it sounds bad. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t disagree that it would be a bad idea for a serious politician to take up the slogan themselves. I just don’t understand the hate for a grassroots movement that found a slogan that motivated people. Because it motivates the wrong people more than it motivates the right people. I watched a chunk of the Republican convention. WOW, did that term turn up over and over again. It’s a great slogan – for the right. It’s really unfortunate it was ever pushed by the left. “Fuck the police” was a better expression of frustration, because everyone understands where it’s coming from, even if some disagree with it. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I mean, how many people even use it anymore? If everyone stopped using it, and no one ever uttered it again, it would still be used against democrats because it was ever uttered by a protester fed up with the police terrorizing and brutalizing their neighborhood. Yeah, it may only be used by the right now. I’m glad the ACLU is promoting a better slogan. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/193 "2020-09-22T18:20:27Z")
There have been multiple interpretations, in this thread … ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/194 "2020-09-22T18:21:22Z")
😃 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/195 "2020-09-22T18:23:28Z")
Okay, then, I did misread DrDeth’s remark, where he said that people in this thread _have_ been consistent, but since you have made the claim, I ask the same question again. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/196 "2020-09-22T18:26:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > because all of those sound good. I just want to say a little more on this. I can still hear Trump saying “they want to defund the police”. Have you ever heard a pro-choicer talk about a rival politician saying “He wants to protect life”? No, you hear them say, “she will restrict your choice” or “he will force you to bear the child of your rapist”. You never hear them say “that bad guy over there wants to protect life”. That’s because “pro life” is a great slogan. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/197 "2020-09-22T18:27:53Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > No, because all of those sound good. I mean, who isn’t in favor if life, in some abstract way? The issue with “defund the police” isn’t that it’s not precise, it’s that it sounds bad. But it’s what needs to happen. So, other slogans get a pass because they sound good, even though they aren’t actually truthful, but this one is condemned because it’s truthful, but doesn’t sound good? We do live in a soundbite bumper sticker society, don’t we? we’re all fucked. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Because it motivates the wrong people more than it motivates the right people. I watched a chunk of the Republican convention. WOW, did that term turn up over and over again. It’s a great slogan – for the right. It’s really unfortunate it was ever pushed by the left. “Fuck the police” was a better expression of frustration, because everyone understands where it’s coming from, even if some disagree with it. I disagree that we should police ourselves based on what our enemies will do. That gives them control over us, that gives them power. That means that even if we win, we still lose. I _did_ see protest signs that said “Fuck the Police” at some of the demonstrations, if that makes you feel any better. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yeah, it may only be used by the right now. I’m glad the ACLU is promoting a better slogan. Outside of some protesters who feel that it is what motivates them to get out of bed and face teargas and bullets, risk arrest and prosecution, yeah, pretty much only used by the right. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/198 "2020-09-22T18:29:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I _did_ see protest signs that said “Fuck the Police” at some of the demonstrations, if that makes you feel any better. I know, that’s why I brought it up. It’s a better slogan. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/199 "2020-09-22T18:30:16Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I just want to say a little more on this. I can still hear Trump saying “they want to defund the police”. Have you ever heard a pro-choicer talk about a rival politician saying “He wants to protect life”? No, you hear them say, “she will restrict your choice” or “he will force you to bear the child of your rapist”. You never hear them say “that bad guy over there wants to protect life”. That’s because “pro life” is a great slogan. Right, because they lie. Has Biden ever said that he wants to defund the police? No. It’s just like, as you say, a pro-choice candidate will say that the pro-life candidate wants to restrict a woman’s choice, and the pro-life candidate will say that the pro-choice candidate wants to murder babies. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/200 "2020-09-22T18:30:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Outside of some protesters who feel that it is what motivates them to get out of bed and face teargas and bullets, risk arrest and prosecution, yeah, pretty much only used by the right. Let me be really clear – I think that particular slogan is MORE USEFUL to the right, and more likely to drive change TO THE RIGHT than it is to help the left. I think that slogan will win votes for Trump – more than I think it will advance the cause by motivating protesters who may or may not effect change with their protests. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/201 "2020-09-22T18:32:03Z")
Yes, I concur. It is a bad slogan. It does not _literally_ say what it wants to say. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/202 "2020-09-22T18:32:26Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think AOC uses it. She gets a lot of coverage. Read it again, I said most, and indeed that is the case. BTW AOC did clarify: [https://news.yahoo.com/aoc-asked-defunding-police-her-130800430.html](https://news.yahoo.com/aoc-asked-defunding-police-her-130800430.html) > “What does an America with defunded police look like to you?” Ocasio-Cortez responded, “It looks like a suburb.” > > “Affluent white communities already live in a world where the choose to fund youth, health, housing etc more than they fund police,” Ocasio-Cortez explained. "When a teenager or preteen does something harmful in a suburb (I say teen bc this is often where lifelong carceral cycles begin for Black and Brown communities), White communities bend over backwards to find alternatives to incarceration for their loved ones to ‘protect their future,’ like community service or rehab or restorative measures. Why don’t we treat Black and Brown people the same way? > > “Why doesn’t the criminal system care about Black teens’ futures the way they care for White teens’ futures?” AOC continued. “Why doesn’t the news use Black people’s graduation or family photos in stories the way they do when they cover White people (eg Brock Turner) who commit harmful crimes?” Remember, the Republican talking point from Trump and others is that Police will no longer be there as a result of defunding (they are still there in affluent white communities still), that is a big lie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677.md?page=11)