# Should democrats rethink "defund police" and push for law and order? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 15, 2020, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677 "2020-09-15T12:04:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/21 "2020-09-15T14:33:11Z")
My point was that it was probably 2 or 3 people. But it may have been 0 and was entirely fabricated. I guess maybe I gave the sheriff the benefit of the doubt that he was only exaggerating, not just lying outright. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/22 "2020-09-15T14:42:22Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Should democrats switch and come down on the side of police and the “defund police” movement? Should democrats stop telling police what methods they can and cannot do? Should democrats take the lead in seeing rioters punished instead of being let go? Should they stand behind their police chiefs? > > What do you all think? You have been told over and over and over again what “defund the police” is all about, why it exists, and how little it factors into Biden’s campaign. Is there any reason to believe that telling you all this again will make a difference? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/23 "2020-09-15T14:51:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > My point was that it was probably 2 or 3 people. > > But it may have been 0 and was entirely fabricated. I guess maybe I gave the sheriff the benefit of the doubt that he was only exaggerating, not just lying outright. Think of all the stories we’ve heard lately about somebody writing something mean on a Starbucks receipt or putting something gross in their McShake. All of them were confirmed by the police to be fabricated, and about half the officers were disciplined. Here is a brief introductory list of cites. 1. [Police lie about being poisoned by bleach at Shake Shack](https://www.businessinsider.com/nypds-shake-shack-hoax-stop-taking-police-word-2020-6) 2. [Police apologize for lying about “pig” on their receipt.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-chief-apologizes-for-mcdonalds-officer-fabricated-story-about-being-served-mcdonalds-coffee-with-fing-pig-on/) 3. [Target finds no employee wrongdoing after policeman lies about tampon in coffee cup](https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/investigation-starbucks-barista-feminine-hygiene-product-cops) 4. [Police chief admits officer faked being shot at for attention](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/02/an-officer-called-help-shots-were-fired-it-was-all-hoax-police-chief-says/) 5. [Cop admits telling falsehood about employees tampering with his food](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/07/29/cop-accused-mcdonalds-employees-taking-bite-out-his-sandwich-turns-out-he-forgot-he-ate-it/) 6. [Police ruin a Subway franchise with false accusation of meth poisoning](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/14/utah-subway-store-sues-police-after-worker-cleared-of-drugging-officer/) 7. [Cop starts crying thinking her order has been poisoned because it took a little too long](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCZA4TZ4o48) Police have an enormous persecution complex. They have been caught in lies multiple times, been forced to apologize, been disciplined for it. They are chronic and compulsive liars, and one bad apple spoils the entire bunch. Never believe police when they tell you how persecuted they are. Never. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/25 "2020-09-15T15:40:55Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Cop starts crying thinking her order has been poisoned because it took a little too long Okay. Based on what I just watched, this strikes me as a mis-characterization. The woman LEO, clearly is exhausted and emotional. We don’t know what her shift was like or what she’s had to deal with. She deserves some slack and not to be lumped in with the others. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > They are chronic and compulsive liars, and one bad apple spoils the entire bunch. So we _don’t_ throw out the baby with the bath water, but we _do_ throw out an entire bushel because of a few bad apples… .is that the new logic that we’re applying now? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/26 "2020-09-15T16:37:36Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Okay. Based on what I just watched, this strikes me as a mis-characterization. The woman LEO, clearly is exhausted and emotional. We don’t know what her shift was like or what she’s had to deal with. She deserves some slack and not to be lumped in with the others. Do police ever take that into account while shouting orders at people? anyway, this wasn’t some recorded conversation she had that was taken out of context. This was her uploading accusations at McDonald’s employees about them poisoning her food. She didn’t just start crying, she recorded it and chose to share it with the world. If she shows that poor of judgment, that level of paranoia that the McDonald’s employees are out to kill her, why the fuck do we trust her with a gun, and to make life and death judgment calls over the people she is supposed to be protecting? So, sure, give her a break. She’s not a liar, she’s having paranoid delusions. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > So we _don’t_ throw out the baby with the bath water, but we _do_ throw out an entire bushel because of a few bad apples… .is that the new logic that we’re applying now? Does _anyone_ know how the bad apple saying goes? It’s not, “I’ve got a few bad apples, huha.” It’s “One bad apple spoils the bunch.” I’m sorry that the bad cops make the good cops look bad, but if the good cops didn’t want to look bad, then they’d do something about the bad cops. Instead, they look the other way, and cover for them, and think that as long as it’s not actually their knee on a person’s throat, then that means that they have no culpability, no responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/27 "2020-09-15T16:40:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So we _don’t_ throw out the baby with the bath water, but we _do_ throw out an entire bushel because of a few bad apples… .is that the new logic that we’re applying now? What percentage of apples have to be bad before we acknowledge there’s a problem in the way we pick them? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/28 "2020-09-15T16:45:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Okay. Based on what I just watched, this strikes me as a mis-characterization. The woman LEO, clearly is exhausted and emotional. We don’t know what her shift was like or what she’s had to deal with. She deserves some slack and not to be lumped in with the others. I can excuse someone for being emotional after a long shift. I have been there. But sleep deprivation doesn’t incept new beliefs that you didn’t hold before. She already believes all the paranoid cop stories about being poisoned, she’s complaining that she doesn’t get enough respect, _she recorded it on camera and shared it with the internet_ stating that she wasn’t sure if she’d been poisoned. Maybe exacerbated by fatigue, but the underlying beliefs and entitlement were already there. When challenged, she didn’t apologize and just claimed that her real point is people were too mean to her. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > So we _don’t_ throw out the baby with the bath water, but we _do_ throw out an entire bushel because of a few bad apples… .is that the new logic that we’re applying now? I didn’t equate the baby/bathwater cliche to the one about bad apples, so I’m going to ignore whatever that is. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/29 "2020-09-15T16:47:22Z")
Not the argument I’m making at all. The picking process needs to be completely overhauled. I just don’t think _guilty until proven innocent_ is a reasonable default position on all cops. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/30 "2020-09-15T16:51:52Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I just don’t think _guilty until proven innocent_ is a reasonable default position on all cops. My position is that every cop must be considered a liar unless they’ve been sworn under oath, and proceed with caution even then. I don’t believe every cop is a murderer or serial brutalizer, but I do believe they have a violent allergy to accountability that causes them to lie and exaggerate whenever it’s convenient. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/31 "2020-09-15T16:54:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do police ever take that into account while shouting orders at people? Are we thoroughly familiar with all police encounters, or just the ones that make the news? I’m willing to condemn every single bad cop. But I guess I’m too particular and the broad brushes are out. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/32 "2020-09-15T16:54:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I just don’t think _guilty until proven innocent_ is a reasonable default position on all cops. Sure, but would you consider it a reasonable position for cops to take before they end someone’s life, or they torture and brutalize them? I mean, we were just talking about a cop that was not giving that benefit of the doubt to McDonald’s employees. What reason do we have to give them any better? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/33 "2020-09-15T16:57:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Are we thoroughly familiar with all police encounters, or just the ones that make the news? > > I’m willing to condemn every single bad cop. But I guess I’m too particular and the broad brushes are out. Let me stipulate a point. I do not know for a fact that every single cop is a liar. But based on public media reports, I believe that for purposes of protecting myself, others, and crafting good policy, we should proceed from the assumption that every police officer is lying when they aren’t under oath. I believe that cop culture is an us-versus-them mentality where the “sheepdog” is justified in saying anything whatsoever to make the arrest and attach the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/34 "2020-09-15T17:01:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I mean, we were just talking about a cop that was not giving that benefit of the doubt to McDonald’s employees. What reason do we have to give them any better? No McDonald’s employee was actually hurt in this video. We don’t know enough about this incident to condemn this woman except to see that she seems to be exhausted and emotional in the moment. Unless there is a video of her shooting the server, I think it would behoove us not to escalate it out of proportion. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/35 "2020-09-15T17:10:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > No McDonald’s employee was actually hurt in this video. Read [this article](https://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-cop-gets-nickname-officer-karen-after-crying-over-her-botched-mcdonald-order-viral-video/tYKLeBT2RkBTtndtYYCiQO/) and notice the Twitter comments stating that they were going to boycott McDonalds over this. I have no idea how much business McDonalds actually lost over this, I’m just pointing out that falsely accusing workers and businesses of a crime is a harmful behavior. And if you or I did it, we’d be subject to arrest for filing a false report. When cops do it, it’s just Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/36 "2020-09-15T17:17:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Are we thoroughly familiar with all police encounters, or just the ones that make the news? I do not see how that comment is relevant. Is this cop familiar with all fast food encounters? Seems like you are trying to say that cops do not usually give orders and expect them to be followed, even if you have had a bad day. They don’t know what your shift was like or what you had to deal with. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m willing to condemn every single bad cop. But I guess I’m too particular and the broad brushes are out. Are you willing to condemn every cop that looked the other way or covered for a bad cop? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/37 "2020-09-15T17:19:43Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are you willing to condemn every cop that looked the other way or covered for a bad cop? Yes I am. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/38 "2020-09-15T17:19:53Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Now Trump slammed it, of course, and Biden also condemned it. However many people feel what lead to this was the democrats embrace of anti police rhetoric. Notice all the police chiefs in major cities being forced out by democrats, democrats telling police they cant use tear gas on rioters, democrats refusing to prosecute rioters even after being arrested by police, and democrats called for defunding police. Democrats allowing CHAZ. > > You have to admit democrats really want to see themselves as being on the side of BLM and demonstrators for racial justice and portraying Trump as being a racist and on the side of fascism. > > Should democrats switch and come down on the side of police and the “defund police” movement? Should democrats stop telling police what methods they can and cannot do? Should democrats take the lead in seeing rioters punished instead of being let go? Should they stand behind their police chiefs? > > What do you all think? I think Democrats are are on the side of law and order. First, I condemn the person who shot those officers in LA, as well as the people who showed up wishing that they not survive. Here is where I believe the problem is. What’s happened, from my perspective, is that in many places the police themselves are no longer on the side of law and order. This is the reason the vast majority of those who are calling to “defund the police” are doing so. It’s not that we are against law and order. It’s that we believe the cause of law and order is no longer being served by, and is in fact being undermined by, many of our law enforcement officers. The right wing thugs wearing a uniform are the ones who need to lose their jobs and be replaced by competent LEOs who actually support law and order and not just claim that they do. The LEOs turning a blind eye to right wing thuggery and punishing lawful actions from those on the left are the ones that need to go. If there weren’t so many of them, those of us on the left wouldn’t be protesting. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/39 "2020-09-15T17:20:55Z")
If this were a video that someone else took of her venting, then sure. But she chose to make this accusation public. She deicded to indulge her paranoia, and claim that people were out to get her, and to make that public. You don’t think that that causes any sort of division between cops and the people they are supposed to protect? I’ve worked fast food, I’ve served hundreds, probably thousands of cops. Now, I’ve got to wonder if this cop is going to think I’ve poisoned him? She is the one who chose to escalate this out of proportion. Why don’t you tell her to stop accusing fast food employees of trying to poison her? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/40 "2020-09-15T17:21:33Z")
For every bad cop, how many of the others that look the other way and/or actively cover up the actions of those bad cops would you guess there are? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/41 "2020-09-15T17:24:02Z")
Much like the threats to boycott the McDonald’s restaurant, I think yours is an overreaction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677.md?page=3)