# Should democrats rethink "defund police" and push for law and order? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 15, 2020, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677 "2020-09-15T12:04:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/62 "2020-09-15T18:06:38Z")
I dont know, what do you think? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/63 "2020-09-15T18:08:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No. She claimed someone tried to poison her. Amazing that no charges were filed, no one arrested, no one’s neck knelt on. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/64 "2020-09-15T18:09:29Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > She is a fucking peon. One solitary cop that over-reacted to something due to whatever stress she happened to be experiencing at the time. Her words were hardly significant enough to bring down an entire fast food franchise. Honestly, don’t you feel like you’re over-reacting to this to a far greater extent than even she did? Please try to be a little more honest here. Nobody is saying that Officer Karen is the rotten apple that’s bringing down the entire system or beating people in the streets. I pulled 7 examples of officers fabulating stories in which they were persecuted. I observe that these 7 are not an exhaustive list, they are _only the ones that we happened to catch_, and I don’t believe we caught anywhere near all of them. Given that, I think the only way to keep myself safe and avoid believing falsehoods is just to assume they’re lying unless under oath. I don’t know that they’re all liars, I just know they’re widespread enough that I should protect myself by acting as if they’re all liars. And I want the press, the courts, and the DAs to operate under that same assumption. I don’t need the press to report that every cop is a liar, I just need the press and general public to stop credulously believing every bullshit persecution story that the cops put out. If they’re not under oath, if there isn’t video, then we don’t accept anything they’re saying. They’ve ruined their presumption of honesty. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/65 "2020-09-15T18:10:48Z")
My best guess, looking at how much of it happens within view of other officers, and how much effort is taken by police departments to cover up these actions by bad officers, that it averages 5 accessories after the fact for every bad cop…but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was higher. What is your opinion on this? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/66 "2020-09-15T18:11:06Z")
Unfortunately, that’s what happens with an actual grass roots movement. They don’t have focus studies and test groups. They don’t have PR committees. They find something that resonates, that gets people off their asses, and they rally around that. Biden and the leadership have done exactly as you have said. They don’t use that term, and they do define what they do support. The problem is, is that even though the right has insisted on what it should mean, that’s not actually what it means, and for some, actually repudiating the phrase is to repudiate what it actually does stand for. I wouldn’t blame the DNC for a term they didn’t come up with. And I also wouldn’t blame them for not throwing those who support what it actually means under the bus. I can only really blame the right for just outright lying and misinforming the public, so that there are those who believe that the Democrats stand for eliminating the police. And I blame those who chose those outlets to consume that will lie to them and tell them these things. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/67 "2020-09-15T18:11:37Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And how would you feel about being on the wrong end of her at the end of one of her shifts? > > Perhaps this is a recent thing, and she used to be a fine officer. Her behavior here says that she is not anymore. > > So, we are in agreement that she is no longer fit to serve as a police officer, correct? No. The only thing I feel reasonably confident in concluding is that she had a shitty day. You may read whatever else you feel comfortable into her actions and speculate about whatever consequences may or may not result. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/68 "2020-09-15T18:11:50Z")
I’m just looking at my local city, where there was a proposal to reduce, not eliminate the police overtime budget to fund a lot of the stuff that “Defund the Police” wants to fund, and the Mayor countered with the (frankly stupid) idea to give all city employees (except police, of course) who make over 60k a progressive salary haircut, and framed the whole damn thing as basically pay cuts for fat city employees and reducing bureaucracy vs. defunding the police and inducing chaos. Thankfully the city council realized what bullshit it was and shot it down, but not before there was a fairly agitated contingent of people who actually perceived it as “defunding the police”. I want to point out that my city’s salaries aren’t lavish by any means. They’re reasonably competitive, but not extravagant. And are in line with the same positions in other cities. They have to be, or competent engineers, managers, analysts, etc… work elsewhere. But these clowns felt like it was better to hamstring the city bureaucracy rather than cut OVERTIME for police. The issue is absolutely that polarizing and irrational for a lot of people, especially older, white suburbanites. This is very much the sort of thing that might well have some of them thinking “Well, I don’t like Trump at all, but at least he’ll try and keep the cops on the streets which is more important than what a dick he is personally.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/69 "2020-09-15T18:14:03Z")
I guess you missed the part where she accused people of trying to poison her. But it was subtle, easy to miss. ETA: Unless what you are saying is that her suspicions were valid. I hadn’t though of that. Is that what you are saying? That her accusations that someone was trying to kill her was a valid concern, an not paranoid delusions? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/70 "2020-09-15T18:14:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I wouldn’t blame the DNC for a term they didn’t come up with. And I also wouldn’t blame them for not throwing those who support what it actually means under the bus. That’s where I differ with you. If they’re serious about winning the election, they should have thrown it under the bus and backed over it a few times to make sure it was good and dead. Otherwise they’re going to get tarred and feathered by it whether they want to be or not. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/71 "2020-09-15T18:21:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No. She claimed someone tried to poison her. I wouldn’t be spending more than a single sentence on it if it weren’t for you defending her. > > All you have is that she is insignificant, that she can’t bring down McDonald’s, or that maybe she had a bad day. > > I have the words that she recorded and chose to share with the world. > > If she thinks that her food taking a while at McDonald’s is someone trying to kill her, what’s she going to think when someone reaches for their wallet after she asks them for ID? > > Is it okay if she overreacts if she had a bad day? > > My only reaction to this is in reaction to your defense of her behavior. Understand something; I’m not defending her far fetched accusations of McDonald’s. I’m saying that equally far fetched accusations of her honesty or ability to do her job are just as ridiculous if all we have is this dumb fucking video to go on. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/72 "2020-09-15T18:24:01Z")
You do know that means backing over actual people, right? (Still metaphorically, of course) Why would I support them if they don’t support me? There are two sorts of people when it comes to “defund the police.” There are the ones who understand what it means, and support it, even if under a different name, and then there are those who are against any sort of police reform, and they lie and say that they don’t understand it. Sure, republicans will tar and feather away. They would do it with this ammo or anything else. Being worried about what your enemy will do lets your enemy control your actions. I’m more worried about my allies, and that if they condemned “defund”, if they outright called people chanting that to be thrown under the bus, then they have told the public that they don’t support the ideas behind it. They don’t have to use it, and I would agree that they shouldn’t. But it became a rallying cry to those who have suffered under terrorism and oppression of “law and order”, and to tell them that their words are hurting people’s feeling will be proving that they really aren’t getting it, and are not going to do anything to alleviate the brutality that is going on to our fellow citizens. Like I said, they didn’t come up with it, and they also don’t have the right to make others stop using it. Any damage is baked in. If no one ever utters the words “defund the police” again, it will still be repeated over and over and over again on the right wing radicalization networks in order to increase that fear and anger and hatred of the other. All they can do is to shoot themselves in the foot by backing the bus over their own supporters in an effort to keep the right from doing what it’s going to do anyway. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/73 "2020-09-15T18:26:56Z")
And all the post that you objected to was that this was an example of the cops’ persecution complex. You don’t think that _she_ overreacted? Is it not? And I do add in, that if her judgement is so fried that she thinks that fast food workers are trying to kill her, then I don’t know that we should trust her in an actual life or death situation. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/74 "2020-09-15T18:29:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And I do add in, that if her judgement is so fried that she thinks that fast food workers are trying to kill her, then I don’t know that we should trust her in an actual life or death situation. Absolutely. The most generous interpretation is that this cop gets paranoid and unhinged when she has a long shift or a bad day. Guess what, cops have long shifts and bad days all the time. If you can’t handle that, maybe be an accountant or florist, but you don’t get to keep a job where you have to carry a gun and sometimes point it at people, full stop. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/75 "2020-09-15T18:33:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are you willing to condemn every cop that looked the other way or covered for a bad cop? I am, and we all should be, _especially_ police officers. That right there, that police officers cover for, look the other way, and remain silent about, bad cops, is the root of every single goddamn problem we have with policing in America. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/76 "2020-09-15T18:34:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And all the post that you objected to was that this was an example of the cops’ persecution complex. > > Is it not? > > And I do add in, that if her judgement is so fried that she thinks that fast food workers are trying to kill her, then I don’t know that we should trust her in an actual life or death situation. Specifically, I objected to her being lumped in with other cops who were actually proven to be liars. From a larger perspective, we rightly expect that cops should take a much more tolerant approach to their interactions with civilians. I’m saying this is one case in which a cop could be treated with the same consideration. For whatever reason, any such consideration is seen as intolerable by some who responded. I get why that may seem like a reasonable reaction for some. I just don’t think that it make it the right reaction/conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/77 "2020-09-15T18:39:35Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Absolutely. The most generous interpretation is that this cop gets paranoid and unhinged when she has a long shift or a bad day. Guess what, cops have long shifts and bad days all the time. If you can’t handle that, maybe be an accountant or florist, but you don’t get to keep a job where you have to carry a gun and sometimes point it at people, full stop. I agree. It is “_the most generous interpretation_”. Is it the necessary one? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/78 "2020-09-15T19:02:59Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m saying this is one case in which a cop could be treated with the same consideration. For whatever reason, any such consideration is seen as intolerable by some who responded. We’re stricter on civilian experts in high-risk jobs such as airline pilots, nuclear reactor operators, train engineers, everybody whose confusion or error could hurt people. Cops are equipped and legally empowered to physically kill you if they get a wild hair. Why do we not hold them to a similar standard? I’m not saying we have to judge Officer Karen as a bad person. She’s simply demonstrated instability under stress. I’d support her taking a desk job, but if that’s what a bad day looks like for her, then we need to make sure all her bad days happen without carrying a gun under color of authority. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/79 "2020-09-15T19:05:12Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Specifically, I objected to her being lumped in with other cops who were actually proven to be liars. Are you saying that there is some truth to her claim that the McDonald’s employees tried to poison her? 'cuase, unless that’s your claim, then I really don’t understand your defense. And if that is your claim, then you are going to have to provide some evidence. I actually didn’t lump her in as a liar. I said that she is having paranoid delusions. The post that you responded to had it as an example of cops and their persecution complex. And that absolutely is. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/80 "2020-09-15T19:05:15Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I agree. It is “ _the most generous interpretation_ ”. Is it the necessary one? Please take a few quiet minutes and rethink this post. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677/81 "2020-09-15T19:28:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m sorry that the bad cops make the good cops look bad, but if the good cops didn’t want to look bad, then they’d do something about the bad cops. Instead, they look the other way, and cover for them, and think that as long as it’s not actually their knee on a person’s throat, then that means that they have no culpability, no responsibility. I’m sorry that violent protestors make the good protestors and Democrats look bad. But if the good protestors and the Democrats didn’t want to look bad, they’d do something about the violent protestors. Instead they look the other way, release them when arrested, etc. They think that if they aren’t the ones actually throwing Molotov cocktails or shooting people, they have no culpability and no responsibility. Remember, if someone in the far left goes too far and commits violence, it’s just an individual act and doesn’t reflect on anyone else or any left wing organization. But all cops are bastards because of the actions of a few. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-democrats-rethink-defund-police-and-push-for-law-and-order/920677.md?page=5)