# Should dogs be allowed more into public spaces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479 "2014-08-14T00:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/41 "2014-08-14T21:29:01Z")
Well maybe I’m just a crooked capitalist, but I think dogs should be allowed if the store owner wants to allow them, and vice versa (maybe barring places where there might be legitimate health concerns, like a grocery store). My dad brings his dog to the hardware store, because the owner is cool with it. He brings him to the bank because he gets a doggy treat (the drive-through, not the lobby). He doesn’t bring him to the mall, because Kohls isn’t super thrilled when dog hair gets on the clothes they try to sell. There are places in the world where dogs are much more accepted in businesses than the U.S. ([France](http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g187147-c2024/Paris:France:Paris.With.Dogs.html) comes to mind), and it’s not like it’s the end of the world. There are different ways to do things, and it isn’t necessarily the case that one way is better than the other. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/42 "2014-08-14T21:32:55Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > Well maybe I’m just a crooked capitalist, but I think dogs should be allowed if the store owner wants to allow them, and vice versa (maybe barring places where there might be legitimate health concerns, like a grocery store). I wouldn’t call that crooked capitalism; it’s a reasonable position. It’s equally reasonable for me to say, “You let dogs in, Mr. Hardware Store Owner? Okay, I’m not shopping here, and will warn persons like my sister, who is allergic to dogs, not to do so either.” And as for places like the local bank branch, I will complain first to the manager and then to corporate. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/43 "2014-08-14T21:34:13Z")
I would rather deal with your average dog than some screaming baby. However I don’t know that dogs, or any pet, belong in places of business. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/44 "2014-08-14T21:40:20Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I wouldn’t call that crooked capitalism; it’s a reasonable position. It’s equally reasonable for me to say, “You let dogs in, Mr. Hardware Store Owner? Okay, I’m not shopping here, and will warn persons like my sister, who is allergic to dogs, not to do so either.” And as for places like the local bank branch, I will complain first to the manager and then to corporate. I agree. If a store wants to allow dogs, fine I’ll go elsewhere. What I objet to is the idea that dogs should be allowed _everywhere_. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/45 "2014-08-14T21:41:12Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > [URL=“[Service Dog? - Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=730906)”]Maybe I’m being willfully blind because I love my dog so much, but I truly don’t understand why dogs are frequently banned from places where babies/children are allowed. Children are human beings with rights and essential human dignity, and human beings are the focus of the way we design our society. Dogs are not people and are entitled to all the same rights as a stapler. I have to agree with Dr. Strangelove in that very few dogs are actually all that well behaved. They aren’t mean or bad, but I’d say 90% of all dogs are very poorly leash trained; a dog that strains on leashes, chases other dogs, jumps on people (even if friendly)and such is poorly trained and has a fool for a master. At least nine of ten dogs are like that. I think most people think the dog’s finished training once it poops outside. But that said, it’s irrelevant. Children are people. Dogs aren’t. The fact you would imply chldren are not people suggests you have really not thought this out very well. Were you not a person when you were a child? Of course you were. You are bound by simple decency to acknowledge the humanity of other people. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/46 "2014-08-15T09:31:49Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > I would rather deal with your average dog than some screaming baby. > > However I don’t know that dogs, or any pet, belong in places of business. Dogs will do fine if left at home alone, with food & drink. They might make a mess if left inside too long–but a nice fenced yard will work. You really can’t handle babies that way. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/47 "2014-08-15T15:15:31Z")
I think there is a findamental distinction that has been alluded to, but not explicitly stated: A misbehaving child is annoying, but a misbehaving dog is dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/48 "2014-08-15T16:34:03Z")
This is a very US-centric thread. Has anyone here been to France? They seem to get by just fine with dogs everywhere. And so it is in Carmel, CA. Granted, Carmel is a tiny town, but dogs are welcome in all the parks (except one), are allowed on the beach w/o leashes (never seen a problem) and in many of the shops and restaurants. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/49 "2014-08-15T17:07:37Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I think there is a findamental distinction that has been alluded to, but not explicitly stated: > > A misbehaving child is annoying, but a misbehaving dog is dangerous. A misbehaving child who is running around is also a health risk, and actually probably more than the typical dog in my area. Dogs tend to be vaccinated and the number of diseases they carry that can be transmitted to humans is small. Children put hand to mouth, items to mouth, hands to you, mouth to your etc…and in my part of the country it is highly likely that they are not vaccinated. I disagree with your dismissal of risk and I think both should be allowed in public places at the property owners discretion, but only if they are well behaved. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/50 "2014-08-15T17:16:28Z")
Conflicted here. My personal principles are to automatically oppose as many prohibitions as possible. But having even more dogs around in public would be pretty stressful for me. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/51 "2014-08-15T17:19:47Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > A misbehaving child who is running around is also a health risk, and actually probably more than the typical dog in my area. Dogs tend to be vaccinated and the number of diseases they carry that can be transmitted to humans is small. Children put hand to mouth, items to mouth, hands to you, mouth to your etc…and in my part of the country it is highly likely that they are not vaccinated. > > I disagree with your dismissal of risk and I think both should be allowed in public places at the property owners discretion, but only if they are well behaved. I’m not talking about diseases that might be treated by a doctor. A badly behaved dog could kill or severely maim me with one bite. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/52 "2014-08-15T17:30:16Z")
To be up front, I have a personal bias in this matter. Earlier this year my young son was bitten by a dog in a public place. We had to take him to the ER where they ended up starting him on rabies shots as a precaution. It was very traumatic. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/53 "2014-08-15T17:39:27Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I’m not talking about diseases that might be treated by a doctor. A badly behaved dog could kill or severely maim me with one bite. A bit of hyperbole there. A badly behaved teenager could do the same thing. Or you could be struck by lighting or a meteor or a zombie invasion. There were 32 dog caused fatalities in the US last year, you are much much much more likely to be killed by another human than a dog. Public policy should not be based around irrational fears. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/54 "2014-08-15T17:51:04Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > To be up front, I have a personal bias in this matter. Earlier this year my young son was bitten by a dog in a public place. We had to take him to the ER where they ended up starting him on rabies shots as a precaution. It was very traumatic. I am sorry this happened to you, but it is a very rare event and I hope you took legal action against the owner. There are two main causes of bites in public, and please understand I am not saying anything about you with these statements. 1. under-socialized fearful dogs. A broad ban on dogs has a large part to do with this because they are not well socialized. 2. Parents not taking the time to teach their kids how to interact with dogs. We teach them to cross roads safely, not to touch hot stoves but we let them literally hurt and stress out dogs. I have a very very tolerant dog but every time a parent stupidly lets their kid approach my dog, who will not bite, I take the time to educate the child on the proper and nice way to approach them. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/55 "2014-08-15T18:01:43Z")
Agreed that the problem is that people don’t realize/accept that what their dog is doing is negatively impacting others and don’t realize/accept that their dog is not well-trained enough to be taken into certain situations. People’s blind spots with regard to their dogs is just too big. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The problem is that almost no dogs are well behaved. Some minimum standards: > > - Never tugs on leash. The leash should just be a hint to the dog to change direction. The dog isn’t under control if it’s constantly pulling on the leash. > - Only shits/pisses on command. And please try to do it in your own yard. Even if you pick it up, you’re still leaving shitsmears on other people’s property. > - No barking. > - No chasing other animals (or humans). [These](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_GbVUEzSS-54/TBoF6MB-n7I/AAAAAAAAEqE/yG08EMhzMC4/s400/Self_Confidence.jpg) appear to be well-behaved dogs. > - Does not become increasingly excited/agitated in the presence of other dogs. > - No jumping on or other physical contact with humans except by permission. > > I know it’s possible to train dogs to meet this standard, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable. But I doubt that one dog in a hundred meets it among the general population. Jesse is a black lab who comes to work every day with the woman who owns the antique store on my block. He absolutely meets or exceeds all of these standards. Her old yellow lab, Noah, did too. Then again, they’re both retired Seeing Eye dogs. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/56 "2014-08-15T18:24:24Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > A bit of hyperbole there. A badly behaved teenager could do the same thing. Or you could be struck by lighting or a meteor or a zombie invasion. > > There were 32 dog caused fatalities in the US last year, you are much much much more likely to be killed by another human than a dog. Public policy should not be based around irrational fears. Fatalities from dog bites are admittedly rare. Unfortuantely, dog bites are not. > **[All Dog Bite Statistics](https://www.dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/all-dog-bite-statistics/)** > > \[vc\_row\]\[vc\_column\]\[vc\_column\_text\] The number of dogs There currently are 89.7 million dogs in the USA, which are kept by 60.2 million households. (American Pet Products Association, Pet Industry Market Size & Ownership Statistics, accessed... > [@](#): > > The most recent USA survey of dog bites conducted by CDC researchers concluded that in 2001, 2002 and 2003 there were 4.5 million American dog bite victims per year (1.5% of the entire population). Sacks JJ, Kresnow M. Dog bites: still a problem? Injury Prevention 2008 Oct;14(5):296-301. > > 885,000 bites per year – almost one out of every 5 – are serious enough to require medical attention. (Centers for Disease Control, Dog Bites, accessed May 10, 2014.) > > Dog bites send nearly 368,000 victims to hospital emergency departments per year (1,008 per day). Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Nonfatal Dog Bite–Related Injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments — United States, 2001, MMWR 2003;52:605-610. > > In 2012, more than 27,000 people underwent reconstructive surgery as a result of being bitten by dogs. (Centers for Disease Control, Dog Bites, accessed May 10, 2014, quoting from American Society of Plastic Surgeons. 2012 Plastic Surgery Statistics Report [online]. 2012. [cited 2013 Oct 24]. Available from URL: [http://www.plasticsurgery.org/Documents/news-resources/statistics/2012-Plastic-Surgery-Statistics/full-plastic-surgery-statistics-report.pdf.](http://www.plasticsurgery.org/Documents/news-resources/statistics/2012-Plastic-Surgery-Statistics/full-plastic-surgery-statistics-report.pdf.)) You do not see these sorts of statistics for, say, public interactions with human children. Such interactions rarely require visits to ER or reconstructive surgery - even the most bratty and annoying kid rarely inflicts actual injuries on others. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/57 "2014-08-15T18:37:37Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I am sorry this happened to you, but it is a very rare event and I hope you took legal action against the owner. There are two main causes of bites in public, and please understand I am not saying anything about you with these statements. > > 1. under-socialized fearful dogs. A broad ban on dogs has a large part to do with this because they are not well socialized. > > 2. Parents not taking the time to teach their kids how to interact with dogs. We teach them to cross roads safely, not to touch hot stoves but we let them literally hurt and stress out dogs. I have a very very tolerant dog but every time a parent stupidly lets their kid approach my dog, who will not bite, I take the time to educate the child on the proper and nice way to approach them. That’s fine to identify why the dog bites. But that wasn’t the question of the OP. Given these two causes, what happens if more people are taking these poorly trained dogs into public where they will meet poorly trained kids (and adults. Adults are hardly better)? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/58 "2014-08-15T19:16:05Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > That’s fine to identify why the dog bites. But that wasn’t the question of the OP. Given these two causes, what happens if more people are taking these poorly trained dogs into public where they will meet poorly trained kids (and adults. Adults are hardly better)? The correct response is to make them criminally and financially responsible. Which they are in most states. I also kindly recommend a great training school. But the risk is quite small even today. Note that bites are easy to see. The far mor common death and illnesses caused by children are orders of magnitude higher. And your risk of injury from driving to a public place is much higher than the risk from dogs. We have many places that allow dogs where I live and for the most part the owners of the places and patrons are very good about policing bad behavior. Social pressure is a far better method for changing behavior. Being selfish and banning something that is an rare risk or because it does not for in with your own personal likes is never good policy. In my city dogs outnumber children. Yet a quick call to the dog catcher informs me that they have not had a dog caused fatality in a bar or eatery. Yet lots of people die due to child spread pathogens. Neither should be banned and I was responding to a claim that dogs present a huge risk. It is my responsibility to watch for pedestrians while on a bike or when driving. It is the parents responsibility to teach their child to cross safely because I may make a mistake. It is my responsibility to make sure my dog is safe to take in public. It is a child’s parents responsibility to limit thir children’s exposure to dogs if they can not educate them how to interact with them. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/59 "2014-08-15T19:25:29Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The correct response is to make them criminally and financially responsible. Which they are in most states. I also kindly recommend a great training school. But the risk is quite small even today. Note that bites are easy to see. The far mor common death and illnesses caused by children are orders of magnitude higher. And your risk of injury from driving to a public place is much higher than the risk from dogs. We have many places that allow dogs where I live and for the most part the owners of the places and patrons are very good about policing bad behavior. Social pressure is a far better method for changing behavior. > > Being selfish and banning something that is an rare risk or because it does not for in with your own personal likes is never good policy. > > In my city dogs outnumber children. Yet a quick call to the dog catcher informs me that they have not had a dog caused fatality in a bar or eatery. Yet lots of people die due to child spread pathogens. Neither should be banned and I was responding to a claim that dogs present a huge risk. > > It is my responsibility to watch for pedestrians while on a bike or when driving. It is the parents responsibility to teach their child to cross safely because I may make a mistake. It is my responsibility to make sure my dog is safe to take in public. It is a child’s parents responsibility to limit thir children’s exposure to dogs if they can not educate them how to interact with them. It seems to me absurd to compare the risks of being bitten to the risks of pathogens. That risk does not put people in fear in the same manner as being around a large dog. That said, I would tend to agree that there is little harm to having more public spaces open to dogs. I am more objecting to the notion that the danger of being bitten is trivial, and so fear of being bitten is irrational. Statistics state otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/60 "2014-08-15T19:27:50Z")
Be it dogs or kids, the problem is self-absorbed / self-entitled owners of each. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479.md?page=4)