# Should dogs be allowed more into public spaces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479 "2014-08-14T00:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/101 "2014-08-16T01:11:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You did, and you’re wrong. A dog bite is the responsibility of the dog owner. Not the bitee, unless the person was actually physically attacking the dog, which of course is the case rather rarely. > “Getting in the face” of a dog should not cause it to bite. > > In the world I live in, dogs are jumping up at people and nipping at people who didn’t touch them first pretty much all the time. Or some other idiocy; a few weeks ago I and my fiancee watched, agog, as a person walked their dog down a busy street in Oakville in such a manner whereby they were on one side of the widewalk, the dog was on the other given ten or twelve feet of slack on the leash, and the leash was stretched across the sidewalk tripping people. The master’s fault, of course, not the dog’s. “Oh, s/he won’t bite!” is the usual stupidity I hear as the dog knocks a small child down or, many times, actually DOES bite someone. I provided actual cites that listed the causes of bites and that typically they are not just random and unprovoked. Please provide cites to the contrary. Anecdotes about poor behavior are still anecdotes and not data. As a cyclist and pedestrian I see inconsiderate behavior all the time, unless you can show that this is a unique trait to dog owners and not a broader human issue I see no value to your claims. What makes dog bites so much more worse than the far more common assaults and falls caused by people running into others? These causes are orders of magnitude more common. So unless you are saying we should remove inconsiderate people from public spaces I will take your argument as what it appears to be, pure actor observer bias. ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/102 "2014-08-16T01:40:53Z")
As has been brought up in this thread (and largely ignored), this isn’t a hypothetical situation. There are many places in the world where dogs are very much a part of public society. There are sometimes problems, but by and large it isn’t an issue. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/103 "2014-08-16T02:25:44Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > As has been brought up in this thread (and largely ignored), this isn’t a hypothetical situation. There are many places in the world where dogs are very much a part of public society. There are sometimes problems, but by and large it isn’t an issue. Yes it is de facto allowed in Seattle. [ > [@](#): > > In fact, pet dogs are not officially permitted in restaurants or even at sidewalk tables, according to Hilary Karasz with Public Health–Seattle and King County. But, she says, restaurants will not be shut down merely because they allow dogs; it would take a food-borne illness, staff not washing their hands or something along those lines. ]([Seattle's Dog Obsession - Seattle magazine](http://www.seattlemag.com/article/seattles-dog-obsession)) With 153,000 dogs animal control only sees about 300 dog bites complaints a year and only a fraction of these are serious. You are 10 times more likely to be a victim of violence from a human. That jumps to 20 times if you include aggravated assault. [ > [@](#): > > Seattle receives about 600 “aggressive animal” complaints a year, of which 300 involve a bite. Seven dogs were administratively declared dangerous last year, a designation requiring that they be euthanized or sent to live outside the city. ]([http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/New-Seattle-law-cracks-down-on-dangerous-dogs-1442645.php](http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/New-Seattle-law-cracks-down-on-dangerous-dogs-1442645.php)) But apparently data is not relevant in this debate, hopefully we can get people who will share some. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/104 "2014-08-16T02:46:21Z")
Here is another cite: WARNING PDF [http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/1991-which-dogs-bite-denver.pdf](http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/1991-which-dogs-bite-denver.pdf) In this study, about dogs who bit non-family members and a control group shows how being chained up, or left in the yard for 8+ hours was more common with biting dogs. Dogs that are chained up or ignored in a yard are not typically as well socialized, and restricting dogs from public places forces this to happen. I had a previous cite that showed that socialization, which is very difficult with a broad ban of dogs in public places makes this difficult and the data suggests that it would increase the number of bites. This advice is given by almost every credible source I can find. And I am actually having a hard time finding non-credible sources that disagree. [ > [@](#): > > Socialize your dog. Introduce your dog to many different types of people and situations so that he or she is not nervous or frightened under normal social circumstances. ]([http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/dogs/tips/prevent\_dog\_bites.html](http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/dogs/tips/prevent_dog_bites.html)) Banning dogs to the owners property is quite clearly a good way to increase serious bites, for those of you who disagree please provide something except your own fear in rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/105 "2014-08-16T04:14:35Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > In this study, about dogs who bit non-family members and a control group shows how being chained up, or left in the yard for 8+ hours was more common with biting dogs. Dogs that are chained up or ignored in a yard are not typically as well socialized, and restricting dogs from public places forces this to happen. That’s simply preposterous. Forbidding dogs from running loose in particular parks or entering stores does not necessitate chaining them up in backyards. “restricting dogs from public places” does not force dogs to be chained anywhere, it forces the owner to find responsible and legal ways of training and socializing the dog, which is, frankly, not very difficult. You can walk your damn dog on a leash pretty much anywhere, bring it to dog parks and designated areas, and find other ways to socialize the animal with no more effort that I would expect from a responsible dog owner. Where would one find _bans on dogs leaving the owner’s property_? Nowhere I’ve lived and seen hundreds, if not thousands, of poorly trained dogs. Leaving a dog chained outside is completely unnecessary and yet another sign of a fool who should not own a dog. I’ve owned several exceptionally well behaved dogs, not one of which was left chained outside but none of which lived in a city where you could bring a dog into a restaurant (service dogs aside.) This stuff ain’t rocket science. Walk the dog frequently. Take it to an obedience school when it’s a puppy. You can buy books explaining this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/106 "2014-08-16T04:24:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s simply preposterous. Forbidding dogs from running loose in particular parks or entering stores does not necessitate chaining them up in backyards. “restricting dogs from public places” does not force dogs to be chained anywhere, it forces the owner to find responsible and legal ways of training and socializing the dog, which is, frankly, not very difficult. You can walk your damn dog on a leash pretty much anywhere, bring it to dog parks and designated areas, and find other ways to socialize the animal with no more effort that I would expect from a responsible dog owner. > > Where would one find _bans on dogs leaving the owner’s property_? Nowhere I’ve lived and seen hundreds, if not thousands, of poorly trained dogs. Leaving a dog chained outside is completely unnecessary and yet another sign of a fool who should not own a dog. I’ve owned several exceptionally well behaved dogs, not one of which was left chained outside but none of which lived in a city where you could bring a dog into a restaurant (service dogs aside.) > > This stuff ain’t rocket science. Walk the dog frequently. Take it to an obedience school when it’s a puppy. You can buy books explaining this stuff. Awesome straw man setup up there. How about we try again and address what I said and claimed instead of manufacturing a narrative that is easy to refute. And I will remind you, the plural form of anecdote is not data. (hint, the “total ban” was not my idea, argument or stance) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/107 "2014-08-16T06:31:04Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Awesome straw man setup up there. > > How about we try again and address what I said and claimed > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > **Banning dogs to the owners property** is quite clearly a good way to increase serious bites, for those of you who disagree please provide something except your own fear in rebuttal. Submitted without comment… ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/108 "2014-08-16T09:39:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > With 153,000 dogs animal control only sees about 300 dog bites complaints a year and only a fraction of these are serious. You are 10 times more likely to be a victim of violence from a human. That jumps to 20 times if you include aggravated assault. So? What use would public spaces be if humans weren’t allowed in them? Comparing the risk of dogs to the risk from things we cannot affect (like pathogens) or risks we take ourselves as a personal choice (like driving) isn’t a valid argument. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/109 "2014-08-16T13:52:58Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > (hint, the “total ban” was not my idea, argument or stance) “Banning dogs to the owner’s property.” Your words. I was just going by what you said. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/110 "2014-08-16T21:24:57Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “Banning dogs to the owner’s property.” Your words. I was just going by what you said. OK, so where are they going to get socialized? By barking at each other as the owners drag them along on a walk on the sidewalk? You are the one that framed the straw man by saying I wanted all parts to be off leash and that all stores had to have access. Which 100% a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/111 "2014-08-17T03:22:40Z")
I said nothing of the sort. I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about. Are you confused, or mistaking someone else’s words for mine? ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/112 "2014-08-17T05:07:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In the world I live in, dogs are jumping up at people and nipping at people who didn’t touch them first pretty much all the time. Funny, I don’t see this. I am not necessarily in favor of allowing dogs in more public places than they are already, by the way. I live right in a very busy downtown area, and there are dogs everywhere, especially when there is some sort of event. I’ve never seen a dog nipping at or jumping on random people. The biggest problem is owners not paying attention and keeping the leash short enough when needed. I live in central Jersey, so it’s not like I’m in some hippie canine utopia, either. Where do you live where dogs act like that in public spaces? If I’ve been jumped on, it’s because I’m all up in the dog’s face giving it an enthusiastic ear scratch and telling it how adorable it is. (With the owner’s permission, of course.). I don’t think I’ve ever been nipped at. I’ve been denied permission to pet a dog because it’s not friendly, and sometimes, when I’ve offered my hand to sniff, the dog doesn’t seem amenable to interacting, so I back off. The only animal I’ve been attacked by in town was a Canada goose. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/113 "2014-08-17T08:16:30Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > \ The only animal I’ve been attacked by in town was a Canada goose. **Green Bean** , if you’d prefer a 100% American goose, I’m available … ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/114 "2014-08-17T13:05:09Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > … > > Leash laws can go a long way. But seeing how many people in local parks ignore leash laws, I think that dog-owners need more socializing before they’re ready to have their access expanded. > > … > > I love dogs! I hold with the idealistic notion that there are no bad dogs, only bad owners. But…there are way too many bad owners. They need to get their shit together, and, alas, I mean that literally. I used to like taking a peacefully quiet early morning stroll in my local park before the throngs arrived, but I quit doing so because frequently there would be an unattended dog running up to sniff 'n lick me. I’d look around for an owner and they would be off in the distance, with leash in hand, looking the other way instead of watching their dog. Often the dog would be standing right next to its owner before running toward me without the clueless owner’s attention. Many dog owners act like the park is their personal dog run. ignoring that there may be another person around who doesn’t want to socialize with their dog. When I take a dog to the park, I keep it on leash because I don’t assume that everyone wants to interact with it. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/115 "2014-08-17T13:14:00Z")
ImHO, we should develop the Moon or Mars as a place where people who like to have dogs can live and can take all the dogs with them. People don’t think about the oddly onesided nature of the relationship between dogs and people nearly enough. Well, at least, with the nature of the relationship between masters and their purse dogs, their dogs that make them look tough, their dogs who keep their feet warm, or who share their bed and couch… dogs have got us all conned. A world without dogs as pets would be much safer, much more efficient…etc. I’m not convincing anyone, am I. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/116 "2014-08-18T12:29:53Z")
I think companion animals have made themselves at home in our public spaces as much as they need to already. I’m just waiting for the first time I have to share a commercial flight with someone’s service monkey or service Shetland pony, so they don’t get all stressed out. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/117 "2014-08-18T19:11:25Z")
We live in a more rural area, but I take Gunner the Great Dane with me to lots of places. Yesterday I took him to the local Ace Hardware and he’s been to the feed store, even Lowes had allowed us in the store. Gunner is well behaved and others seem to enjoy seeing him. I would never think if taking him into a place that serves food, but other than that most places done seem to mind. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/118 "2014-08-19T02:23:28Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I think companion animals have made themselves at home in our public spaces as much as they need to already. > > I’m just waiting for the first time I have to share a commercial flight with someone’s service monkey or service Shetland pony, so they don’t get all stressed out. :dubious: Oh yes the “and gay marriage will lead to sex with ducks” argument…dogs are a unique case, at least 33,000 years of co-evolution means that they have actually evolved to understand us humans. There is a unique bond with them. The slippery slope arguments will require more then just FUD. Cite: [http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/02/21/280640267/how-dogs-read-our-moods-emotion-detector-found-in-fidos-brain](http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/02/21/280640267/how-dogs-read-our-moods-emotion-detector-found-in-fidos-brain) ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/119 "2014-08-19T02:42:52Z")
My dog travels with my wife and I all the time. We go to dog friendly cities, stay at dog friendly motels (about 2/3 of them now) and eat at dog friendly restaurants (typically on a patio). We’ve never had a problem of any kind. Fortunately, he’s a friendly dog who stays out of everyone’s way. There are several dog friendly web sites that list dog friendly destinations and accommodations. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479/120 "2014-08-26T00:56:31Z")
No. Dogs should be allowed **less** places than they currently are. In the past decade a lot of businesses have become rather lax about barring non-service dogs, and I wish they wouldn’t have. Maybe, maybe if people only brought well-behaved, well-trained dogs into stores and on trains I’d feel happier to see them, but they don’t just bring those dogs. They also bring dogs that pee all over the counter at the Christmas Tree Shop with them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-dogs-be-allowed-more-into-public-spaces/695479.md?page=5)