# Should elections bar candidates that can't speak English? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2012, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169 "2012-01-30T06:46:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/61 "2012-01-30T18:55:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What difference does it make? Because wouldn’t the arguments and reasoning be different for each? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/62 "2012-01-30T18:58:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, so since the odds are even, how much would you like to bet? I’ll give you 2:1 odds. > > If you don’t want to make a monetary bet, how about loser doesn’t post in GD for 1 month? I’d get 2 months if I lose. My position is that I don’t make an assumption and you want me to make a bet on one or the other outcome? Besides the fact that I don’t bet on anything, I won’t take that. As for the “loser doesn’t post” thing, it seems a rather obnoxious kind of one-upmanship. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/63 "2012-01-30T19:00:51Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Apache? :smack: but you got a point 🙂 > [@](#): > > Of course there is a back story to this tale. The lawsuit that initiated the challenge to Cabrera was filed by San Luis’ mayor, Carlos Escamilla, whom Cabrera had twice tried to recall last year. That does add a bit to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/64 "2012-01-30T19:05:47Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > My position is that I don’t make an assumption… Your position, such as it is, is contrary to fact. Why you cling to it is puzzling. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/65 "2012-01-30T19:09:24Z")
As I understand it, the USA actually has no official language. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/66 "2012-01-30T19:10:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Your position, such as it is, is contrary to fact. Why you cling to it is puzzling. It’s only contrary to fact if you already know she wasn’t born in the United States. Do you have as source that tells you definitively that the number of American-born citizens who speak English poorly is actually zero? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/67 "2012-01-30T19:14:14Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As I understand it, the USA actually has no official language. At the federal level, no. But 28 states do, and it’s English. The only state that has another official language is Hawai’i (with Hawai’ian being that languge, of course). Arizona is one of those states. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/68 "2012-01-30T19:18:31Z")
Discrimination is alive and well in Yuma, where 90% of the population speaks Spanish, yet it cannot be required that the City Attorney Glenn Gimbut be required to learn Spanish. The law requiring officeholders to speak English is from the 1910 Arizona statehood grant, but many Mexican and Mexican American people learn history from a different perspective than the anglos. And ENGLISH ONLY is a hotly disputed issue all over the land that was once Mexico and is now part of the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/69 "2012-01-30T19:20:45Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > While I agree with her, I thought the questions raised by this situation would make for a lively debate, to wit: Can this law stand a challenge? This reminded me of the CDL requirement, which was rescinded in 2007: §391.11 of the FMCSR outlines the general qualifications for CMV drivers, including a requirement that they be proficient in English: …a person is qualified to drive a motor vehicle if he can read and speak the English language sufficiently to converse with the general public, to understand highway traffic signs and signals in the English language, to respond to official inquiries, and to make entries on reports and records … §391.11(b)(2) The ACLU argued it may violate Title 7 (discrimination due to race) and there was a Due Process and Equal Protection concern. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/70 "2012-01-30T19:23:38Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Discrimination is alive and well in Yuma, where 90% of the population speaks Spanish… From wikipedia: > [@](#): > > As of the census[6] of 2000, there were 160,026 people, 53,848 households, and 41,678 families residing in the county. The population density was 29 people per square mile (11/km²). There were 74,140 housing units at an average density of 13 per square mile (5/km²). The racial makeup of the county was 68.3% White, 2.2% Black or African American, 1.6% Native American, 0.9% Asian, 0.1% Pacific Islander, 23.6% from other races, and 3.2% from two or more races. 50.5% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race. 43.7% reported speaking Spanish at home [2]. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/71 "2012-01-30T19:26:19Z")
That cite doesn’t at all refute the claim that 90% of the population of Yuma speaks Spanish, **John**. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/72 "2012-01-30T21:53:41Z")
Is everyone else in the city government required to be proficient in Spanish? If not, that hardly seems fair. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/73 "2012-01-30T22:18:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If no possible evidence can reasonably exist, then your only arguments are fallacious ones. Such arguments have no place in a debate, and when they come up can easily be dismisses as, well, fallacious. > > If that’s what you meant, then I interpreted your post incorrectly. I’ll leave the practicality of that remedy for another thread. So wait, are you saying that it is a fallacious argument to guess that the Jim Crow laws are racist unless I can find you proof that leggislators conspired to pass those laws for the sake of disenfranchising the black vote (for example) and therefore have no place in debate? I can be convinced that its not racist and the recent revalation seems to indicate that it is not but I am pretty confortable including racism as a possible explanation for anything with a racist impact that happens in a Jim Crow state. You really can’t be taking the position that I can’t call something racism unless I have some sort of incontrovertible evidence that racism is present are you? Its as if you are simply tired of habving to defend the racists on your side and have decided to shift the burden of proof to make it appear that there are no racists on your side. After 400 years of slavery, 100 years of Jim Crow and all the racist shit we’ve seen since then, I don’t think you can flatly rule out racism absent evidence. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/74 "2012-01-30T22:59:53Z")
The situation is occurring in [San Luis, Arizona](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Luis,_Arizona). Alejandrina Cabrera hasn’t been elected to the City Council, the challenge is to her being on the ballot for the March election. [Candidate confirms she will appeal decision removing her from ballot](http://www.yumasun.com/news/cabrera-76275-english-appeal.html) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/75 "2012-01-30T23:05:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Because wouldn’t the arguments and reasoning be different for each? If the point is simply that the voters should be able to pick whoever they want, regardless of legislation presumptively to the contrary, no. Bricker didn’t limit his comment to language qualifications, though he may have meant to. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/76 "2012-01-30T23:27:31Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > I wasn’t really thinking of anyone in particular, other than the general refrain of “_but he/she doesn’t speak French!_” that I kept hearing. If those complaints turned out to have been unfounded, that’s a good thing. I was just presenting the situation as a general comparison to the one in Arizona and trying to see what the differences are. The other Quebec NDP MP whose French skills I heard being possibly insufficent is [Tyrone Benskin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrone_Benskin). But as I’ve said, I haven’t heard about him in some time, and I don’t know if he decided to brush up on his French. That’s certainly possible. And now I see that he actually has a relatively long CV. He doesn’t seem to be a random guy they pulled up from the street. He was actually somewhat notable even before being elected. Funny note: some journalists appear to agree with me, since the journal article linked to at the bottom of this Wikipedia page is titled “Layton compte sur des candidats ministrables”. But I at first read this as “Layton compte sur des candidats _misérables_”. > [@](#): > > Please don’t get me started on Pauline Marois… it would be much too much of a hijack to this thread. Suffice it to say that I think that anyone who wants to speak as _my_ premier should be bilingual. She isn’t. She will never speak for me. Er, okay. But the point is that you probably wouldn’t _forbid_ her from seeking the premiership of Quebec based on her insufficient English skills. You just wouldn’t vote for her. That’s how it should be, really. And of course, I’m quite sure that you wouldn’t vote for Marois even if her English skills were better than yours. Which I’m not expecting to happen, ever, but she may very well have improved since the last time this issue came up. Next election it will be an important issue at least for a segment of the electorate. > [@](#): > > The argument of “she can always equip herself with a team of interpreters” annoys me because of who has to pay for that interpreter - is it acceptable that politicians should go out and hire other people to do basic parts of their jobs for them at taxpayer expense? Now does this apply to unilingual anglophone Supreme Court justices as well? 😛 > [@](#): > > In some cases, proficiency is also - theoretically - established by showing that the job candidate has fulfilled certain general-education requirements, such as Grade 11 French or English classes or the Cégep course requirements ( **HJ** - am I right in thinking that there is no [Exit Exam](http://www.mels.gouv.qc.ca/ens-sup/ens-coll/eprv_uniforme/anglais/Introduction.asp) from the francophone colleges?). There is an [Épreuve uniforme de français](http://www.mels.gouv.qc.ca/ens-sup/ens-coll/Eprv_uniforme/Mfrancais.asp) in French-language colleges, and from your link the English equivalent in English-language colleges. > [@mnemosyne](#): > > I understand that, but what I’m saying is that the signs and grammar of ASL are different than the signs and grammar of LSF and the person signing the former was also likely taught to read and write (and perhaps speak some words) in _English_ while the latter person was taught these things in _French_. The sign language does, to some extent, reflect the written language used by the signer. A deaf American who learned American Sign Language probably did learn to read English at some point, but this will not help them understand spoken English. (Unless they also learned lip-reading, but as I understand it that’s not 100% effective anyway.) Now of course deafness is actually a _disability_, which may guarantee the right to some tools (sign language interpreter, written transcription, etc.) while not knowing the official language isn’t one. > [@Acsenray](#): > > We’re not dealing with a random sampling of people across the entire United States. We already know she lives in a part of Arizona in which the majority of people speak Spanish. No, I see no reason to assume that she’s not a citizen by birth and that’s not nonsense. As a matter of fact, I’d assume a citizen of the United States who doesn’t speak English to be a native-born citizen, ironically for **John Mace** ’s reason: a naturalized citizen will be expected to demonstrate knowledge of English at some point during the process. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/77 "2012-01-30T23:53:11Z")
> [@florez](#): > > The law requiring officeholders to speak English is from the 1910 Arizona statehood grant And which according to CNN stipulated that the officeholders be able to conduct public business in English without the use of interpreters. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > At the federal level, no. But 28 states do, and it’s English. The only state that has another official language is Hawai’i (with Hawai’ian being that languge, of course). And though the New Mexico constitution provides a special status for Spanish in a number of official actions or documents (e.g. proposed constitutional amendments must be published in both languages) it is not required to be used in everything official nor is it indistinctly usable in lieu of English, which is the sole legal language-of-record. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/78 "2012-01-31T01:35:31Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > The fact that this woman’s potential constituents all speak Spanish is kind of irrelevant - she would have to perform her actual duties at city hall and with city, higher government and corporate personnel in English, and at the moment, she cannot do that. Then the voters have the right to vote accordingly. Qualification for office should be determined by the voters, providing the candidate’s a citizen and of age. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/79 "2012-01-31T02:35:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > At the federal level, no. But 28 states do, and it’s English. The only state that has another official language is Hawai’i (with Hawai’ian being that languge, of course). Arizona is one of those states. FWIW, I think you’ll find that Spanish is co-official with English in New Mexico, and has been for many years. ETA: I see thast **JRDelirious** addressed this, ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169/80 "2012-01-31T04:45:42Z")
I scanned the thread and didn’t see one issue addressed, though I may have missed it. America is supposed to be a melting pot, and no, I’m not being quaint here. The fact that this nation is such a draw for immigrants from so many different countries means that we have people speaking over 200 hundred languages. If we really want to keep the idea that these people are welcome and can become part of the fabric of America, we need to have a common denominator. If a city, town, or state embraces Langauge X (any language other than English), we really make that place inhospitable to people who don’t come from Country X. So, let’s say we allow official business in San Luis to be done in Spanish. Not only do mono-lingual native Americans now have to learn another language, but how about immigrants who come from Nigeria, Sweden, China, Thailand, Germany, do they now have to learn yet another language? Yes, they would. This is one of the reasons that a country should have an official language—and just about every one does save the U.S. I think it is good that this issue reared its head in this fashion. Maybe it’ll get people to wake up and see the practical benefits to having both an official state language and national language. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elections-bar-candidates-that-cant-speak-english/611169.md?page=5)