# Should ELF's web site be allowed to preach and teach terrorism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183 "2003-08-23T17:34:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183/41 "2003-08-24T20:53:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > \*\*Shodan, > > Picketing is generally not terrorism. Unless maybe you picketed while waving a loaded gun or something. > > If someone spraypaints “I’m going to kill you” well, it might be terrorism depending upon their objectives. Not the morality of their objectives, but whether they were trying to influence behavior. > > OTOH if someone spraypaints “This car is evil” they are not threatening per se. > > Because of the historical implications of the swastika, it’s much more threatening than “SUV’s Suck” or whatever. Surely, you’re aware of that. > > But I don’t know why you’re even going there when arson has already been committed. \*\* Does it make a difference if someone trashes your car because they care about Mother Earth, as opposed to trashing your car because you are gay? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183/42 "2003-08-24T21:18:28Z")
Hey **Shodan** : Is it different if it’s because you are parked in a handicapped zone? How about if it’s because you are a Republican? How about if they meant to spray some other guys car? What if they only did it becaus they wanted to attack the ozone layer? Also, do you think hate crime laws are anti-terrorist laws? I think these must be answered before we can move forward in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183/43 "2003-08-25T00:53:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > Does it make a difference if someone trashes your car because they care about Mother Earth, as opposed to trashing your car because you are gay? Trashing a car is generally just trashing a car in my book. Are you getting at something, or are you just asking a million variations on the same question? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183/44 "2003-08-25T01:10:58Z")
Burning down the homes of African Americans to keep them away is terrorism. Burning down the showrooms of SUV dealers to keep them away is terrorism. At least, that’s how I see it. ---
**Author:** ![david630](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@david630](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/david630)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183/45 "2003-08-25T02:45:49Z")
What do you guys think of the webmaster from [www.raisethefist.com](http://www.raisethefist.com) who sentened to a year in prison. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183/46 "2003-08-25T03:06:49Z")
[http://www.pc-radio.com/FBI%20Raid%20Silences%20Teen%20Anarchist’s%20Site.htm](http://www.pc-radio.com/FBI%20Raid%20Silences%20Teen%20Anarchist's%20Site.htm) That cracker? [http://cryptome.org/usa-v-rtf-swa.htm](http://cryptome.org/usa-v-rtf-swa.htm) Here’s the search warrant. [http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1030.html](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1030.html) [http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/842.html](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/842.html) And the two charges. Looks like the bombmaking one’s the questionable bit. If he’d presented the information without the intent of using it to cause harm to other people, he would have been immune to the second. Personally, I disagree with that law, I think it’s very close to the fine edge of Brandenberg, but I’m not a lawyer, and it is close. That’s why people who _do_ present that sort of information always put “for educational use only” all over things. [http://web.archive.org/web/\*/raisethefist.com](http://web.archive.org/web/*/raisethefist.com) That’s his old site. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183/47 "2003-08-25T03:08:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Does it make a difference if someone trashes your car because they care about Mother Earth, as opposed to trashing your car because you are gay? Yes, Shodan. One is a form of hatred towards the gay person, saying “I hate YOU”. The other is a form of a hatred against a non-sentient hunk of metal. “I hate your car” Personally, I’d feel more threatened by the former than the latter. Wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183/48 "2003-08-25T06:59:23Z")
For the members who were participating in my completely innocent yet guilty hijacking of this discussion, and also inviting others interested in particating: I made a new thread Is your culture/country in your eyes better then an other and of yes: Why? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206958](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206958) Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183/49 "2003-08-25T07:43:24Z")
Shodan– Trashing someone’s car for any reason is, to me, not terrorism. Spray painting most messages is not terrorism either, IMO. I will agree with you, however, to some extent. One could spell out violent threats with spray paint–threats that the intended victim(s) has reason to believe might come to fruition. This example would probably be terrorism. It is also possible to terrorize by spraying paint in someone’s eyes or mouth, for example. The “tagging” done allegedly by ELF in SoCal, was not of this nature, and is not terrorism AFAIAC. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183/50 "2003-08-25T09:52:07Z")
**Winston** , I liked your answers to december’s questions so much that I will just copy and paste: [quote] **december** : ## Originally posted by December – Is it desirable that such a site be permitted? – Is it legal for people or groups to have such a site? – Should some official body remove their site from the internet? Who? – Are those who maintain the site committing a felony? Should they be prosecuted? – Does it matter legally or morally that ELF’s terrorism is aimed at property, not people? Winston’s responses: 1. Very much so 2. Where I live: yes. 3. Definitely not 4. No and no. 5. Morally. Somewhat but not substantial so. Aldebaran, my answers would not be different for an Islamic website. Why do you ask? ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183/51 "2003-08-25T10:19:32Z")
First of all, it’s not correct to state that ELF’s terrorism is “aimed at property, not people.” That’s their ad slogan, not a rational assessment of the group’s activities. Aaron and bombings are the kinds of things that take lives, and one would have to be delusional to think otherwise. There are people in law enforcement who believe, and not unreasonably, that ELF has not taken credit for at least one fire in which stoner teens were killed. (Hiding in a construction site.) ELF and ALF have taken credit for more than 500 crimes, many of them serious arson fires. As long as the sites (ELF and ALF traditionally take join credit for crimes) stick to explaining how to do things, and avoid publishing things like “Do this think on Thursday, to Bob, who lives at the corner of Elm and Main,” then they are within the law. [hijack]It seems evil to me that most ELF folks in the US do not attend public meetings, or even register to vote. I cannot respect anyone who is going to shriek “the system doesn’t work!” without having tried it. I say “most” because there is one suspected ELF who is know to have worked for a politician and to have at least registered to vote.[/hijack] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-elfs-web-site-be-allowed-to-preach-and-teach-terrorism/197183.md?page=2)