# Should Europe give in and make Ukraine a sacrificial lamb so as to avoid a depression? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2022, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851 "2022-09-02T23:03:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/21 "2022-09-04T11:11:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The attack there was just Russia’s first salvo in an expansionist effort, with the intent of raising Russia’s level on the world stage. Incorrect. Ukraine was the _third or fourth_ foray into expansionism. The West tends to forget about Chechnya, Georgia, and Crimea. That’s part of what makes the current war in Ukraine so ominous - it’s part of a _series_ of such efforts on the part of Russia which is why it’s laughable to think Russia intends to stop with Ukraine. > [@Polerius](#): > > It’s just that in this round of international chess, maybe Europe takes the L, which gives it time to totally disentangle from Russian oil/gas dependence, so that by the next round (more of Ukraine territory, Bellarus, Georgia, ?) it will have the ability to fully cut Russia off and starve it. I’m not convinced all the European nations currently dependent on Russian oil would take such steps. To do so would require massive infrastructure funding and building in a world already under economic stress. It would also require a level of self-discipline and refusal of the cheaper alternative (Russia), who would probably slash prices to keep Europe drinking from their pipelines. Too many focus on _just_ the bottom line and not the greater context, which is how we get into these situations. > [@Polerius](#): > > OTOH, as folks are saying, maybe the best strategy is to just continue as is and just muscle through this winter. I think so, but as already pointed out not being directly affected makes it easy for me to say that. > [@dorvann](#): > > There is a post on Reddit that says Russia think there entitled to rule anyone territory Russia formerly had control over include the former Soviet republics and even Alaska Yes. Putin himself said similar things in public speeches just before/early in the current war. And it’s not “former USSR”, Putin was talking about recreating the Tsarist Russian Empire which stretched from Finland to Alaska. At one point in the 19th Century Russia also had holdings in Hawaii and a bit of California. One of those talking heads on Russia TV was asserting that Russia never sold Alaska to the US, they only _leased_ it (like Britian did Hong Kong) and the Americans have reneged on giving it back. Wonder if anyone kept the receipt from that transaction? Check the Smithsonian. > [@FrenchDunadan](#): > > As previously stated, Putin has the dubious honor of being the second dictator to try to expand by swallowing its neighbors on dubious claims in a century, so we Europeans all knows what will follow if we step back. And _that_ is the counter-balance to Russia dangling the offer of cheaper oil if only Europe will let Putin eat Ukraine. After he digests Ukraine he’ll be hungry again and looking for the next bite. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/22 "2022-09-04T11:34:34Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It would also require a level of self-discipline and refusal of the cheaper alternative (Russia), who would probably slash prices to keep Europe drinking from their pipelines. Too many focus on _just_ the bottom line and not the greater context, which is how we get into these situations. And this would be happening in a world where they’d _already_ compromised their principles because of some short-term economic pain. A Europe that will surrender to Russia under these conditions is a Europe that will never do what’s needed to be done to reduce Russia’s influence. If there are enough people in Europe who support such a plan that there’s a real chance it could ever happen, we’ve already lost. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/23 "2022-09-04T12:21:56Z")
No, we should have never given in in the past (Chechnia, Georgia, Crimea and others) nor should we give in now. I am glad our political leaders are realizing that at last, even in Germany. And to those that reproach Europe its dependence on Russian energy (not only gas, but also oil) I would like to remind them of the USA’s historical dependence on the Gulf’s oil and gas. Just because the Saudis don’t yet have the bomb or thousands of tanks close to your border does not mean that they can do no harm, as they in fact have. And both continents depend heavily on China for the economy in general, that is unavoidable. But there are limits, and those must be made clear. One of those limits is open, aggresive fascism. We, the Europeans, count on you, the USA, to be on our side. We need you a bit more than you need us, but in the end we need each other. So please be careful what leaders you elect. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/24 "2022-09-04T13:00:00Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > > [@Dissonance](#): > > > > For example, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland all of which are traditionally far on the neutral spectrum internationally > > Denmark and Norway were founding members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Note the North and Atlantic and look at a map. > So hardly neutral. Denmark has a long pacifist streak going through its history. [Danish socialists proposed back in the 1980s that instead of having its own army Denmark should settle for an answering machine responding to any incoming calls by saying “we surrender” in Russian.](https://schmidtmaria.hu/kozszereples_on_the_way_to_self_destru)[As for Norway](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/08/vikings-for-victory-norwegian-arms.html), > Norway pledged its first batch of military aid just days after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, in turn breaking a 60-year ban on arms exports to active warzones. [1] > [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > There is also some doubt regarding Poland and Hungary (EU members) as well as Serbia. All three have been loosely aligned with Russia for quite some time. Poland has a **very, very** long standing distrust of Russia, and with good reason given the number of times throughout its history that Russia has treated it as a doormat. The last time Poland was loosely aligned with Russia was when it was a rather involuntary member of the Warsaw Pact, having no practical choice in the matter what with all those Soviet troops in its country that never left after WW2 - which began, of course with the [Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact) which arranged peace between Hitler and Stalin on the basis of carving up Poland between the two of them. Poland has provided more arms to Ukraine than any other European country, and more than any country at all barring the US. This surprised me not at all, I fully expected countries such as Poland, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic to support Ukraine with arms. From [Oryx](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/08/a-european-powerhouse-polish-military.html): > Few countries have offered Ukraine even half the extent of military support that Poland has provided. Polish military aid to Ukraine has so far encompassed well over 300 armoured fighting vehicles (AFVs), including over 230 tanks and some 110 pieces of self-propelled guns and multiple rocket launchers, amongst a host of other weapon types. Poland also serves the important role of central transit hub for arms donations to Ukraine, and the majority of Western military aid enters through Poland. Even though Poland does not disclose details of most of its arms deliveries, a great number of armament types have meanwhile been spotted or reported on by authorities in Ukraine. > > Arguably the most significant Polish arms delivery consists of some 230+ T-72M(R) and T-72M1(R) MBTs. While Spain and Germany considered but ultimately refrained from sending ten Leopard 2A4s and 88 Leopard 1A5s, Poland (along with North Macedonia) showed little hesitation in transferring a significant portion of its combat-ready T-72 tank fleet to Ukraine in April, where they were subsequently [up-armoured](https://i.postimg.cc/T2Qq2bs2/image.jpg) through the addition of Kontakt-1 explosive reactive armour (ERA). ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/25 "2022-09-04T13:25:44Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > [As for Norway](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/08/vikings-for-victory-norwegian-arms.html), > > > Norway pledged its first batch of military aid just days after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, in turn breaking a 60-year ban on arms exports to active warzones. [1] That’s what we call cherry picking. Scandinavia had a brief period of being committed to neutrality after the Napoleonic wars. But that was interrupted by WWII and there’s a big gulf between Sweden’s neutrality and Denmark and Norway’s NATO participation. Norway might avoid exporting arms to active warzones, but only when neither country is an ally, which is hardly a general neutral stance. Participating in NATO missions can’t be described as neutrality either. > **[Norway's F16s bomb Libyan targets - Norway's News in English —...](https://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/03/26/norways-f16s-bomb-libyan-targets/)** > > UPDATED: Norwegian fighter jets bombed new targets in Libya during the weekend, as they took part in additional rounds of armed assaults that started Friday. Political support for Norway’s participation in the UN-backed international coalition trying... ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/26 "2022-09-04T14:10:04Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Denmark has a long pacifist streak going through its history. Danish socialists proposed back in the 1980s that instead of having its own army Denmark should settle for an answering machine responding to any incoming calls by saying “we surrender” in Russian. As a Danish socialist, I remember that one quite well. It was not any socialist who said that but [Mogens Glistrup,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogens_Glistrup) a right-wing populist politician who founded [Fremskridtspartiet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Party_(Denmark)). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/27 "2022-09-04T14:17:54Z")
There’s two sides on this economic conflict. Sure western Europe’s economy is suffering because it isn’t shipping Russian gas. But Russia’s economy is suffering for the same reason. And I feel the signs are that Russia is suffering worse (probably because they have the costs of a war to go along with the loss of gas sales). Maybe Putin is the one who needs to admit he screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/28 "2022-09-04T14:51:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Sure western Europe’s economy is suffering because it isn’t shipping Russian gas. But Russia’s economy is suffering for the same reason. And I feel the signs are that Russia is suffering worse (probably because they have the costs of a war to go along with the loss of gas sales). Between the fact that effective sanctions take some time to work, and the fact that not everybody abides by the sanctions, I don’t think that Russia is suffering to the degree that you think. > **[Russia’s Oil Revenue Soars Despite Sanctions, Study Finds (Published 2022)](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/13/climate/russia-oil-gas-record-revenue.html)** > > Rising oil prices more than offset a decline in export volumes during the first 100 days of the assault on Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/29 "2022-09-04T16:13:51Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Denmark has a long pacifist streak going through its history. [Danish socialists proposed back in the 1980s that instead of having its own army Denmark should settle for an answering machine responding to any incoming calls by saying “we surrender” in Russian.](https://schmidtmaria.hu/kozszereples_on_the_way_to_self_destru) [As for Norway](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/08/vikings-for-victory-norwegian-arms.html), Not true. The proposal was made by Mogens Glistrup, a quasi libertarian and founder of Framskridspartiet, quite similar to Berlusconi’s Forza Italia. > **[Mogens Glistrup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogens_Glistrup)** > > Mogens Glistrup (28 May 1926 in Rønne – 1 July 2008 in Virum) was a Danish politician, lawyer and tax protester. He founded the Progress Party, and was a member of the Folketing (1973–1983 and 1987–1990). He had his parliamentary immunity revoked a total of six times due to criminal convictions for tax fraud and racism. > From 1956 to 1963 Glistrup was an associate professor in tax law at the University of Copenhagen, and after leaving the university he became the owner of one of Denmark's leadin... As for Poland and Hungary. What the Polish people want, and pressure their leaders to do is quite different from what their leaders do: stacking the courts, holocaust semi-denial, and aligning the country with Hungary. I trust I don’t have to write anything about Hungary’s Victor Orban and his infatuation with Putin. The two countries are helping each other avoiding EU sanctions. With the invasion of Ukraine, the Polish and Hungarian people are naturally wary/afraid, given the history of the 20th century. That doesn’t mean we should trust their leaders. > **[Polish constitutional crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_constitutional_crisis)** BTW, a Hungarian blog doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/30 "2022-09-04T17:30:03Z")
Not only that, but it’s possible that a serious shortage of Russian natural gas will drive EU states to invest in renewable energy to a huge amount, thereby gaining energy independence AND reducing emissions. It’ll just be painful for them to get there. ---
**Author:** ![NaeNae2362](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naenae2362/32/11882_2.png) [@NaeNae2362](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaeNae2362)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/31 "2022-09-04T18:03:41Z")
I fear that if we do give into to Putin’s tyranny, it will only encourage his aggression towards others. So, I suppose I’m gonna hafta vote “NO” on this one. Putin is a DICtator, pure & simple! I am so NOT looking forward to what lies ahead, but we all know who we have to blame for any misery suffered by the entire world over this! We hear talk of hitmen, assassins, spies and such. Where are these deadly people now? Why are the other countries just sitting back & doing nothing? As powerful as some of them have claimed to be in the past, you’d think they would be ticked off at the fact that some pasty, evil, Russian DICtator is making them look like, well, a “senile, old president”! Perhaps, Putin should be “taken care of”. If he wants to throw his weight around, then let’s throw it back at him! Not even one person on this planet should give Russia a frickin’ thing, in any shape, way or form!!! Not even the time of day!!! If we’re going to chastise him, THEN DO SO!! Stop pussy-footin’ around & PUNISH the neanderthal !! If you spare the rod, you’ll spoil the child. Right? Okay then! Have at it!! If the rest of us must go through this BS, then SO DOES RUSSIA!! Look, Putin - as huge as your country is, you don’t need to add to it! At least until every single citizen of Russia is wealthy & no longer needful of the necessities of life. Until that happens, stay in your own frickin’ yard & stop bullying others! If you prove that you are once again willing to play nice, maybe the rest of us will be more apt to associate ourselves with you, & share our toys!!! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/32 "2022-09-04T19:04:16Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > With the invasion of Ukraine, the Polish and Hungarian people are naturally wary/afraid, given the history of the 20th century. That doesn’t mean we should trust their leaders. The concern is that what a faction of the political leadership in some of these places _doesn’t_ want is _Russian hegemony_. On that they agree with the people. They’ll associate with the rest of Europe for protection from _that_. But not because they value a liberal diverse society, those leaders still consider Liberal Europe values to be weak, decadent, soft, unmanly, elitist, unchristian, etc. And if the rest of Europe backs down, they may see that as proof and seriously consider whether it’s not better to reach an accommodation with the side that’s “virile” and tough and _will_ hurt them if they cross it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/33 "2022-09-04T19:11:11Z")
Neville Chamberlain, is that you? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/34 "2022-09-04T19:34:08Z")
> [@NaeNae2362](#): > > THEN DO SO!! Stop pussy-footin’ around & PUNISH the neanderthal !! Please do not insult Neanderthals by comparing Putin to them. They don’t deserve that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2022, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/35 "2022-09-04T20:34:06Z")
Yeah, next would be Latvia, Lithuanian and Estonia. Finland, Armenia, Poland, the rest of Georgia, Turkestan and others. All that was once part of the USSR or Russian Empire. Maybe not Alaska. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Putin himself said similar things in public speeches just before/early in the current war. And it’s not “former USSR”, Putin was talking about recreating the Tsarist Russian Empire which stretched from Finland to Alaska. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/36 "2022-09-05T01:04:47Z")
> [@NaeNae2362](#): > > We hear talk of hitmen, assassins, spies and such. Where are these deadly people now? Why are the other countries just sitting back & doing nothing? What are you talking about? Where have you been hearing this talk about hitmen and assassins? ---
**Author:** ![SharltoCopley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sharltocopley/32/12309_2.png) [@SharltoCopley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SharltoCopley)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/37 "2022-09-05T23:08:16Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > so stupidly dependent on Russian gas that they will go into a severe recession or depression if Russia keeps up its gas restrictions I don’t understand the logistics of the industry, but how can’t Europe find a replacement in Qatar, Egypt, or any country with considerable gas reserves? Why is this never seriously discussed? ---
**Author:** ![SharltoCopley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sharltocopley/32/12309_2.png) [@SharltoCopley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SharltoCopley)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/38 "2022-09-05T23:20:36Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > and separate themselves from Russia for as long as need be This is going to produce a curious outcome in ten or twenty years. You will have a radically divided world where at least a generation or two will have been born in a world where Russians can’t go to Paris (or whatever other outcome of the sanctions). Let’s face it, Putin’s regime is so deeply instilled in the Russian state, and there’s already a generation of Russians that hasn’t seen any other president. He’s not going away any time soon, and if he dies, his ‘republic’ will continue on the hands of several eligible candidates who will be as protected as he is by the same technologies and agencies. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/39 "2022-09-05T23:23:28Z")
It is seriously discussed, but the logistics of transport are hard. A pipeline from Russia (there are a lot, several of which run though Ucrania, btw.) can transport lots of gas cheaply, reliably and flexibly at short notice. Germany has never built terminals to unload and re-gasify LNG (_liquid_ natural gas) that can be transported by ship. It is much more expensive, they (we?) did not buy the insurance. They are building those terminals in a haste, the fastest they can get are [floating terminals](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germany-charters-fifth-floating-lng-terminal-2022-09-01/). It is awfully expensive, particularly because the providers of these technical wonders know they can charge heftily. > [@SharltoCopley](#): > > He’s not going away any time soon, and if he dies, his ‘republic’ will continue on the hands of several eligible candidates who will be as protected as he is by the same technologies and agencies. Perhaps, but that is not what happened in Spain, for instance. Who knows? Defeating Russia now would ease a lot of things. The faster, the better. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851/40 "2022-09-06T08:23:25Z")
Awesome. Europeans will discover a way around the laws of physics. Somehow they will find a way to have non fossil fuels\* have equivalent energy density as fossil fuels do. No. What will happen is increased investment in oil and gas from alternate sources. \*There is one. Nuclear power. But the Euros are more scared of that than Putin. Plus unfortunately many of the uranium deposits are also in Russia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-europe-give-in-and-make-ukraine-a-sacrificial-lamb-so-as-to-avoid-a-depression/970851.md?page=3)