# Should ex-felons be allowed to vote? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2007, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189 "2007-04-30T17:56:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/261 "2007-05-11T21:09:18Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Do we tax non-citizens living in other countries? If not, I’d say your comparison doesn’t quite float. [/QUOTE] Yes, we do. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/262 "2007-05-11T21:11:02Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Yes, we do. [/QUOTE] Man, that IRS really gets around, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/263 "2007-05-11T21:12:27Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] I think this hits on the real answer – the power to vote should be extended to everyone who is under the direct authority of the government or who is a present on the actual territory over which the government holds sovereign power. [/quote] You assert this, but why? I’ve already pointed out that “direct authority” can be considered a red herring. Non-citizens, living abroad are still taxed on their earnings. They can still commit crimes that invoke US jurisdiction. And US foreign policy obviously impacts their lives greatly. I don’t even need to reach the issue of lawful permanant residents, who are not permitted to vote but are virtually indistinguishable from citizens on each of the criteria you mention. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/264 "2007-05-11T21:13:30Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Man, that IRS really gets around, doesn’t it? [/QUOTE] Yes, they do. And part of their getting around involves taxing non-US citizens living abroad on any income earned here. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/265 "2007-05-11T21:17:00Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Yes, they do. And part of their getting around involves taxing non-US citizens living abroad on any income earned here. [/QUOTE] Wow… that’s quite a bit of shoehorning you’re doing there. It’s strange that you didn’t put that qualifier on your initial statement. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/266 "2007-05-11T21:21:01Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] I don’t even need to reach the issue of lawful permanant residents, who are not permitted to vote but are virtually indistinguishable from citizens on each of the criteria you mention. [/QUOTE] I agree, which is why I said: > [@](#): > > Speaking for myself, I see no reason to distinguish between citizens and lawful permanent residents on this point. I think there is a valid argument that a person who is earning money in the United States is “present” in some meaningful sense. If they are being taxed, maybe we ought to consider to what extent they deserve to have a say in the tax law. I won’t come to a conclusion yet on this point. As an aside, I do believe that what I consider basic constitutional guarantees (free speech, due process, right to representation, trial by jury, etc.) should be extended to anyone who falls within any degree of control of the U.S. government for any reason. The U.S. government should not be able to use its power to curtail or cause the curtailment of any person’s freedoms or liberties without being subject to the same limitations that would be faced if the curtailment happened to a U.S. citizen on U.S. territory. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/267 "2007-05-11T21:54:08Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] I agree, which is why I said: I think there is a valid argument that a person who is earning money in the United States is “present” in some meaningful sense. If they are being taxed, maybe we ought to consider to what extent they deserve to have a say in the tax law. I won’t come to a conclusion yet on this point. As an aside, I do believe that what I consider basic constitutional guarantees (free speech, due process, right to representation, trial by jury, etc.) should be extended to anyone who falls within any degree of control of the U.S. government for any reason. The U.S. government should not be able to use its power to curtail or cause the curtailment of any person’s freedoms or liberties without being subject to the same limitations that would be faced if the curtailment happened to a U.S. citizen on U.S. territory. [/QUOTE] I think this is valid and fair. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/268 "2007-05-11T21:55:38Z")
[QUOTE=bas-relief] I don’t think ex-felons need to be restricted. One of the curious things about our system is that felons can be elected but can’t vote for themselves. At any rate, it’s such small numbers, and so diverse a population, that it can’t possibly change an election. [/QUOTE] Tell that to the disenfranchised voters in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/269 "2007-05-11T22:01:37Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Suppose I were to say: The United States is the world’s most powerful and influential country. The policies and acts promulgated by the USA affects, in non-trivial fashion, every country in the world to some degree. [/quote] To the extent that our actions affect other countries, we should allow the people of those countries to have input in those decisions. For example, if their parliament passes a resolution asking us to start getting out, we should honor that request. > [@](#): > > For this reason, the citizens of the whole world should have a vote in electing the American President. > > Because EVERYONE should be represented by a vote. What you’re really talking about is a world government, which is a valid topic to discuss but is a separate issue from this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2007, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/270 "2007-05-12T02:56:24Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] And part of their getting around involves taxing non-US citizens living abroad on any income earned here. [/QUOTE] Not only that, I noted above that while most of us pay taxes in numerous states, we only are permitted to vote in one of them. So of course we regulate voting a great deal, and tolerate at all times as a matter of course taxation of people without permitting them any vote in the makeup of the government that is taxing them. And what is more, none of this is particularly unjust. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2007, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/271 "2007-05-12T03:03:13Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] I think there is a valid argument that a person who is earning money in the United States is “present” in some meaningful sense. [/quote] We tax people who earn interest income on investments in the US, even if they have never set foot in the US. If you wish to characterize having stocks or a bank account in this country as “present,” you go right ahead. But that strikes me as being a real stretch to the word _present_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2007, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/272 "2007-05-12T03:07:05Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Wow… that’s quite a bit of shoehorning you’re doing there. It’s strange that you didn’t put that qualifier on your initial statement. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] You said: > [@](#): > > Do we tax non-citizens living in other countries? If not, I’d say your comparison doesn’t quite float. I said we did. What about that calls for a qualifier? If you had said, “Do we tax our own citizens?” and I answered that we did, I assume you wouldn’t shriek about the thousands of US citizens that do not, for many and varied reasons, pay various taxes and roll your electronic eyes at the lack of a qualifier that excluded them. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/273 "2007-05-14T01:22:02Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] We tax people who earn interest income on investments in the US, even if they have never set foot in the US. If you wish to characterize having stocks or a bank account in this country as “present,” you go right ahead. But that strikes me as being a real stretch to the word _present_. [/QUOTE] I’ve seen much greater stretches. Outside investers have a choice of where to place their money. If they don’t want their money to fall under U.S Jurisdiction, they don’t have to put their money here. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/274 "2007-05-14T02:41:22Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] Outside investers have a choice of where to place their money. If they don’t want their money to fall under U.S Jurisdiction, they don’t have to put their money here. [/QUOTE] When you travel within the United States, do you have a choice whether or not to pay the sales tax wherever you are? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/275 "2007-05-14T11:26:07Z")
This is all very interesting, but it really has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Ex-felons are citizens who, for the most part, reside in the US and work and are taxed. Obviously, there is a lot of reform going on with regard to how states look at felons’ rights. It seems to me the pendulum is swinging in favor of allowing them to vote. [http://www.civilrights.org/press\_room/buzz\_clips/civilrightsorg-stories/op-ed-free-indeed-to-vote.html](http://www.civilrights.org/press_room/buzz_clips/civilrightsorg-stories/op-ed-free-indeed-to-vote.html) > [@](#): > > Momentum for disenfranchisement reform began 10 years ago when the Texas legislature and then Governor George W. Bush repealed a two-year waiting period required for vote restoration after completion of sentence. The change restored rights to an estimated 317,000 people. **Since 1997, 16 states have taken steps to reform disenfranchisement laws, and more than 600,000 people have regained their voting rights. Polling suggests that the public supports these efforts, with eight in 10 Americans favoring voting rights for persons who have completed their sentence.** Additional support has emerged from the Commission on Federal Election Reform, co-chaired by former President Jimmy Carter and former Secretary of State James A. Baker, III, which recommended the restoration of voting rights to persons upon completion of sentence. Calls for reform are also endorsed by organizations like the American Correctional Association and American Bar Association. > > This year policymakers in 20 states have introduced legislation that addresses felony disenfranchisement, the vast majority of which promote expanded voting access. Voting rights advocates in states like Maryland and Florida are optimistic that 2007 will be an important year for progressive reform. Maybe justice isn’t too far off. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/276 "2007-05-14T12:52:59Z")
Funny you should mention that Commission on Federal Election Reform, since the last time it was mentioned on these boards it was by me, and I was recommending that their recommendations be adopted in toto. Of course, that means I would have to bend a bit on the ex-felons and accept some other commission recommendations that don’t precisely match my policy preferences, and you would have to bend a bit as well, and accept recommendations on matters like voter identification, unified voter databases, steps to avoid double voting, tougher voter fraud penalties, and measures to avoid fraud in absentee voting. I’m certainly willing to do so, in order to get an electoral system that we all can trust. Are you willing to compromise in this way, as those commission members were? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/277 "2007-05-14T13:10:08Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Funny you should mention that Commission on Federal Election Reform, since the last time it was mentioned on these boards it was by me, and I was recommending that their recommendations be adopted in toto. Of course, that means I would have to bend a bit on the ex-felons and accept some other commission recommendations that don’t precisely match my policy preferences, and you would have to bend a bit as well, and accept recommendations on matters like voter identification, unified voter databases, steps to avoid double voting, tougher voter fraud penalties, and measures to avoid fraud in absentee voting. I’m certainly willing to do so, in order to get an electoral system that we all can trust. Are you willing to compromise in this way, as those commission members were? [/QUOTE] Of course I would. I thought they were a given. I’m certainly not arguing against them. I mean, why wouldn’t we want to safeguard the process? Is anyone actually arguing against those points? We want to have a trustworthy process. I don’t know how that \*couldn’t \* make sense. I don’t the issues are as much “if” as “how.” I don’t think it’s an issue of “if you give us this, we’ll give you that.” This is a gaping hole in justice as opposed to gaping holes in process. Apples and oranges if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/278 "2007-05-14T13:25:56Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Of course I would. I thought they were a given. I’m certainly not arguing against them. I mean, why wouldn’t we want to safeguard the process? Is anyone actually arguing against those points? We want to have a trustworthy process. I don’t know how that \*couldn’t \* make sense. I don’t the issues are as much “if” as “how.” [/QUOTE] You’d be surprised. These recommendations have been attacked quite a bit, especially over the ID requirements. Personally, I think we all need to bend a bit to get some things we want enacted, which is why I thought these recommendations ought to be considered as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/279 "2007-05-14T13:30:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Funny you should mention that Commission on Federal Election Reform, since the last time it was mentioned on these boards it was by me, and I was recommending that their recommendations be adopted in toto. Of course, that means I would have to bend a bit on the ex-felons and accept some other commission recommendations that don’t precisely match my policy preferences, and you would have to bend a bit as well, and accept recommendations on matters like voter identification, unified voter databases, steps to avoid double voting, tougher voter fraud penalties, and measures to avoid fraud in absentee voting. I’m certainly willing to do so, in order to get an electoral system that we all can trust. Are you willing to compromise in this way, as those commission members were? [/QUOTE] Were you the one arguing that either _all_ the Commission’s recommendations be accepted at the same time, or that none of it was? I remember thinking out loud that this was an excellent way to guarantee that the Report was scuttled while looking as if you “supported” it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189/280 "2007-05-14T13:31:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] You’d be surprised. These recommendations have been attacked quite a bit, especially over the ID requirements. Personally, I think we all need to bend a bit to get some things we want enacted, which is why I thought these recommendations ought to be considered as a whole. [/QUOTE] Posted too late. Thank you for varifying that it _was_ you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-ex-felons-be-allowed-to-vote/402189.md?page=15)