# Should false rape accusations be prosecuted seriously as actual rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356 "2016-02-06T20:15:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/101 "2016-02-08T01:18:32Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Since not one person in this thread has said any such thing, what you believe or don’t believe about any subject doesn’t really hold much credibility. How the former (even if true) has anything logically to do with the later is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/102 "2016-02-08T01:20:51Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Sorry, but, those statements kind of sound like a claim that it’s not a big deal. For the person involved, of course it is a big deal. On a society-wide level? General false accusations are maybe some kind of deal. People in the modern justice system serving years behind bars for false rape accusations? No. Not a big deal- at least, not a bigger deal than any other false accusation. About two people die a year due to vending machines. It’s a big deal to them and their families, of course. But no, vending machine safety is not as big a deal as, say, car safety. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/103 "2016-02-08T01:35:01Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > For the person involved, of course it is a big deal. On a society-wide level? General false accusations are maybe some kind of deal. People in the modern justice system serving years behind bars for false rape accusations? No. Not a big deal- at least, not a bigger deal than any other false accusation. > > About two people die a year due to vending machines. It’s a big deal to them and their families, of course. But no, vending machine safety is not as big a deal as, say, car safety. Ok, that sounds reasonable. Sorry that I implied you weren’t taking the issue seriously. My only equivocation is it is worse to go to prison under a false rape conviction than it is a false burglary or even murder or aggravated assault charge. At least those last crimes have some kind of “respect” in prison, or, so I have been told. Rapists, I seem to understand, are not. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/104 "2016-02-08T01:48:19Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > A- I have no idea how many date rape “accusations” are false. I really don’t. But I’m not going to dismiss the idea that it happens as an “unfortunate occurrence that happens now and then”. Note in the quote I’m referring to people serving time. Not just a false accusation, but a trial leading to a conviction and time served. I’m sure it happens. Miscarriages of justice happen and there are people behind bars for all kinds of crimes they didn’t commit. People frame each other for murder. Drug dealers set up their partners. Charged communities all too often rush to convict. But given the low conviction rate of rape, in particular, this just isn’t happening regularly. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/105 "2016-02-08T02:19:07Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Note in the quote I’m referring to people serving time. Not just a false accusation, but a trial leading to a conviction and time served. > > I’m sure it happens. Miscarriages of justice happen and there are people behind bars for all kinds of crimes they didn’t commit. People frame each other for murder. Drug dealers set up their partners. Charged communities all too often rush to convict. > > But given the low conviction rate of rape, in particular, this just isn’t happening regularly. Ok, well, yes, I’ll agree with you. (I do). But what about this category: A 16 year old girl who gets pregnant or caught having sex and is embarrassed and afraid and makes up a story. Or, alcohol/drugs are involved or a woman with some type of mental health issue makes a claim of some type of coercion in a date rape situation. I’m - not - saying we don’t take such claims seriously. What I am saying, is how do we, as a society, a society, you and me, not just the courts, handle or think of these claims which - may - be in limited circumstances, exaggerated claims? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/106 "2016-02-08T02:44:12Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > _Sigh_ If I worked for the criminal justice system, it wouldn’t work that way either. Those are just my personal feelings. _Sigh_ You do realize that your “personal feelings” are irrelevant in the real world, right? ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/107 "2016-02-08T03:26:54Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Of the hundreds of millions of sexually active Americans out there, someone actually serving time for a false rape accusation is going to be a statistical blip that’s most likely caused by the justice system failing to uphold the “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” rule-- an unfortunate occurrence that happens now and then in all types of crimes. > > And yet certain people, including a suspicious number of people in category B, want to bring it up in basically every conversation about rape. [emp. added] I agree very much with this, and I want to thank Sven for phrasing it better than I could. I am actually a pretty active advocate for the wrongly convicted. I have given time and money to The Innocence Project, and they have my name and number if they ever need a volunteer interpreter in my area (I have an endorsement in court interpreting). But I do not think rape is worse, except for the sex offender registry, and I am on record of objecting to that. Men who treat women decently should not have to worry about vindictive accusations, and even men who treat women like shit but don’t rape them should not worry about false convictions. I have yet to see false conviction that did not involve the police leeching onto a subject and coercing a confession; rarely, a subject had the misfortune of looking like a security camera subject, but I saw an interview with one guy who even admitted himself that he thought the picture looked like him (and he didn’t get convicted because he had an alibi). Stop worrying about vindictive women. Worry about unethical police and plain bad luck. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/108 "2016-02-08T03:31:49Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > _Sigh_ If I worked for the criminal justice system, it wouldn’t work that way either. Those are just my personal feelings. Prosecutions still need evidence. > > Suppose I were a therapist, though, and before I would treat a client for PTSD following rape, I required her to demonstrate with forensic evidence that she’d been raped? Good thing therapists don’t work that way. So then the Israeli woman who says she feels that she’s been raped after she finds out the man she had a one night stand with was actually an Arab not a Jew as she had originally thought, has been the victim of a rape in your opinion? Would you give the same benefit to men? For example a man gets really drunk and wind up having sex with a gay man which he’d never have done if sober. Upon sobering up and realizing what he did, he believes he’s been raped. Do you agree that he’s been raped? If not, why the double standard? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/109 "2016-02-08T03:40:28Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Nobody is arguing that it’s not a big deal. But we have: > > 1. Multiple levels of reinsurances built in to our justice system to ensure that people aren’t being locked away for years based on a random accusation. > > 2. Existing legal remedies for people who are framed for crimes. > > Add this to: > > A: The reality that real, actual rape is very hard to convict, given it rarely involves witnesses and often leaves unclear evidence. > > B: The range of rape apologists out there arguing that anything short of “stranger with a knife jumps out of the bushes” is not rape/probably a lie/not a big deal/probably her fault (and, newly, probably her fault for making a big deal out of it). > > C: A long history of people being blocked from seeking justice after rape, including through legal punishments for making accusations. > > And it makes you wonder, out of all the topics out there, why this particular topic holds such fascination with people. > > Of the hundreds of millions of sexually active Americans out there, someone actually serving time for a false rape accusation is going to be a statistical blip that’s most likely caused by the justice system failing to uphold the “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” rule-- an unfortunate occurrence that happens now and then in all types of crimes. > > And yet certain people, including a suspicious number of people in category B, want to bring it up in basically every conversation about rape. It’s also worth noting that there are false accusations of all crimes and I’m not sure that rape is actually more common than others. IIRC, one study suggested around 10% of all reported car thefts wound up being false. Moreover, I remember one Slate writer, I think it was Amanda Marcotte, linked to showing that most of the people who did falsely report such claims to the police, probably around 6% of all reported rapes, were not done by vindictive ex-girlfriends or anything like that, but usually by disturbed women seeking attention who often didn’t even accuse anyone in particular and if they did eventually accuse a specific person it was in an attempt to firm up a collapsing story. That certainly seems largely the case of Tawana Brawley, the woman in the Duke Lacrosse case, and of course the infamous “Vicky” in the UVA case. Real life is not the movie Gone Girl. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/110 "2016-02-08T03:53:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then the Israeli woman who says she feels that she’s been raped after she finds out the man she had a one night stand with was actually an Arab not a Jew as she had originally thought, has been the victim of a rape in your opinion? That’s not a good example. That guy really did rape her, and was convicted of a lesser charge because it’s what they could prove easily without the (very traumatized) victim’s testimony. It may have been something like a plea bargain. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s also worth noting that there are false accusations of all crimes and I’m not sure that rape is actually more common than others. > > IIRC, one study suggested around 10% of all reported car thefts wound up being false. That was my point. > [@](#): > > Moreover, I remember one Slate writer, I think it was Amanda Marcotte, linked to showing that most of the people who did falsely report such claims to the police, probably around 6% of all reported rapes, were not done by vindictive ex-girlfriends or anything like that, but usually by disturbed women seeking attention who often didn’t even accuse anyone in particular and if they did eventually accuse a specific person it was in an attempt to firm up a collapsing story. Yup. A common diagnosis is Borderline Personality Disorder. Their rape stories usually happened long enough ago in the past that whomever they tell is unlikely to suggest going to the police, and if the story mentions going to the police, they are disbelieved, lose her rape kit, or something like that, and it often happened in another country. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/111 "2016-02-08T04:14:52Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > That’s not a good example. That guy really did rape her, Horseshit. Sabbar Khashour had consensual sex with a woman who believed he was a Jew because he introduced himself by his nickname, Dudu, which sounded Hebrew and therefore was convicted of “rape by deception” because she thought he was Jewish. Only a bigot would approve of his being jailed and he’s only in jail because Israel is an openly racist country. Now, since you’ve made it clear that you think regardless of the facts or evidence if a woman feels that she’s been raped, she’s been raped even if it’s merely because she’s a racist pissed off that she found out she’d had sex with someone of the wrong nationality, please answer my question. If a man who insists he’s straight, gets really drunk and wind up having sex with a gay man which he’d never have done if sober and then, upon sobering up and realizing what he did, believes he’s been raped, do you agree that he’s been raped? Or do you feel in having a different standard for men? That if a woman feels she’s been raped, she’s been raped, but you don’t feel the same is true for men. Or, once more, would you agree that perhaps you jumped ahead of yourself when you said that if someone feels they’ve been raped then they’ve been raped? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/112 "2016-02-08T05:19:21Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I agree very much with this, and I want to thank Sven for phrasing it better than I could. I am actually a pretty active advocate for the wrongly convicted. I have given time and money to The Innocence Project, and they have my name and number if they ever need a volunteer interpreter in my area (I have an endorsement in court interpreting). > > But I do not think rape is worse, except for the sex offender registry, and I am on record of objecting to that. Men who treat women decently should not have to worry about vindictive accusations, and even men who treat women like shit but don’t rape them should not worry about false convictions. I have yet to see false conviction that did not involve the police leeching onto a subject and coercing a confession; rarely, a subject had the misfortune of looking like a security camera subject, but I saw an interview with one guy who even admitted himself that he thought the picture looked like him (and he didn’t get convicted because he had an alibi). > > Stop worrying about vindictive women. Worry about unethical police and plain bad luck. > [@](#): > > I am actually a pretty active advocate for the wrongly convicted. Unless its a man wrongly convicted/accused of rape > [@](#): > > Men who treat women decently should not have to worry about vindictive accusations, and even men who treat women like shit but don’t rape them should not worry about false convictions. I have yet to see false conviction that did not involve the police leeching onto a subject and coercing a confession What about their damaged reputations? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/113 "2016-02-08T05:21:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Horseshit. > > Sabbar Khashour had consensual sex with a woman who believed he was a Jew because he introduced himself by his nickname, Dudu, which sounded Hebrew and therefore was convicted of “rape by deception” because she thought he was Jewish. > > Only a bigot would approve of his being jailed and he’s only in jail because Israel is an openly racist country. > > Now, since you’ve made it clear that you think regardless of the facts or evidence if a woman feels that she’s been raped, she’s been raped even if it’s merely because she’s a racist pissed off that she found out she’d had sex with someone of the wrong nationality, please answer my question. > > If a man who insists he’s straight, gets really drunk and wind up having sex with a gay man which he’d never have done if sober and then, upon sobering up and realizing what he did, believes he’s been raped, do you agree that he’s been raped? Or do you feel in having a different standard for men? That if a woman feels she’s been raped, she’s been raped, but you don’t feel the same is true for men. > > Or, once more, would you agree that perhaps you jumped ahead of yourself when you said that if someone feels they’ve been raped then they’ve been raped? LOL we finally found something to agree on. I agree 1000%. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/114 "2016-02-08T07:30:59Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Sounds to me that your basic arguement is that way more women are raped than men are falsely accused of rape and therefore the later are not the “real” victims yet the former are. No. my argument is that penalizing false rape accusations the same as actual rape will create a reluctance to report actual rape (given how the system is already currently disposed to disbelieving/dismissing/ignoring _real_ rape reports). By all means give an annoyance fine for false reporting. If it goes to trial, by all means use the existing penalties for perjury, should it turn out the accuser is lying. If, by some rare chance, the falsely accused _is_ imprisoned, by all means throw both perjury and the civil lawsuit system at them. There are _existing_ mechanisms to deal with false criminal accusations, and I judge them sufficient to deal with the pandemic\* of false rape accusations we’re currently experiencing, that has all the MRAs up in arms. - sarcasm alert ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/115 "2016-02-08T07:37:48Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No, I’m not. Yes, you are. Not intentionally, but that is the outcome of your and the OP’s stances. > [@](#): > > So, if a person were falsely convicted of rape, you, wouldn’t give a shit??? I’d give a shit _for that person_. I wouldn’t give a shit for the magnitude of the non-problem, is what I mean. It’s like - I give a shit for the pain of people caught in volcanic eruptions. I do not give a shit for the magnitude of the problem of volcanic eruptions as a threat to human life vs, say, war or malaria or global warming. > [@](#): > > Of course you would give a shit. But you are making this into a competition of two topics. The OP did that, and you continue to do so by supporting the OP’s thesis. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/116 "2016-02-08T07:39:55Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Some percentage of the population are basically “sociopaths”. My WAG is that women that will lie about a rape is probably in the same ballpark as men that will rape to get sex. You think 25% of women will lie about rape? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/117 "2016-02-08T07:41:47Z")
> [@Meed](#): > > Why did you pick those examples? Neither involves someone making a false allegation of rape in court. OP hasn’t been back in to this thread since starting it… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/118 "2016-02-08T07:43:55Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > My only equivocation is it is worse to go to prison under a false rape conviction than it is a false burglary or even murder or aggravated assault charge. At least those last crimes have some kind of “respect” in prison, or, so I have been told. Rapists, I seem to understand, are not. You’re confusing rapists with paedophiles. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/119 "2016-02-08T09:23:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No. my argument is that penalizing false rape accusations the same as actual rape will create a reluctance to report actual rape (given how the system is already currently disposed to disbelieving/dismissing/ignoring _real_ rape reports). If you can - prove - they were lying, then it needs to be the same penalty. Like the Duke case for example. > [@](#): > > There are _existing_ mechanisms to deal with false criminal accusations, and I judge them sufficient to deal with the pandemic\* of false rape accusations we’re currently experiencing, that has all the MRAs up in arms. > > - sarcasm alert I’m not a MRA ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356/120 "2016-02-08T09:30:26Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If you can - prove - they were lying, then it needs to be the same penalty. Like I said, the lex talionis is an archaic Bronze Age jurisprudence, and no, i don’t want it revived. Current perjury sentences and civil redress are sufficient. Or elaborate - why does it “_need_” to be the same, other than pure revenge motivations. > [@](#): > > I’m not a MRA I didn’t say you were. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-false-rape-accusations-be-prosecuted-seriously-as-actual-rape/745356.md?page=7)