# Should fictional entertainment never encourage "supernatural" thinking? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 2, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872 "2011-02-02T07:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/21 "2011-02-02T19:04:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Supernatural means supernatural. It doesn’t just mean unrealistic. Yeah, but the OP didn’t say “supernatural,” he said “woo,” and called out things like alien visitations and massive conspiracies, neither of which are supernatural. If pseudoscience like the “evidence” for the Apollo hoax are woo, isn’t the pseudoscience from CSI just about as crappy? > [@statsman1982](#): > > On a more general note, whenever one asks the question “Should be allowed …” I think he or she is obligated to outline just exactly what the course of action should be if the answer is “No.” I second this notion. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/22 "2011-02-02T19:46:14Z")
What should happen is that debunking should be made to be as much fun and as heroic as believing. The X-Files were promoted as being a match between a believer and a skeptic. But from the very first episode it was obvious that the woo was going to be real and the skeptic made out to be an idiot for not understanding that there’s more to the world than science understands. (Which is why I stopped watching after the first episode.) In all almost battles between believers and skeptics, the skeptics are wrong, blinkered, supporters of the establishment, narrow thinkers, closed minds, or insufficiently spiritual. There may be some entertainment where believers are dumped on and exposed as the scientifically illiterate numbskulls that they must be but those are so rare that I can’t think of an example. I write f&sf and so I completely understand how it can be fun to let fantasy into the world for entertainment. I do believe there’s a critical distinction between writing deliberate outright fantasy and declaring that woo-woo is true-true. Obviously I would never ban anything. Discouraging woo-woo through mockery and facts, just as we do here on the Dope, is a legitimate course of action, though. Even making the ratio 10 to 1, believers over skeptics, would be better than the current 1,000,000 to 1 ratio. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/23 "2011-02-02T20:50:15Z")
I think it can actually help. When I was a wee little shave, I was fascinated by the Bermuda Triangle, aliens visting Earth, spontaneous human combustion, etc But the more I read about it, the more convinced I was that it wasn’t so. So it can work both ways ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/24 "2011-02-02T20:51:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, but the OP didn’t say “supernatural,” he said “woo,” The thread title? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/25 "2011-02-02T20:55:08Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > \*\*\*Good \*\*\*fiction should be internally consistent. If you have a show or book that throws in a supernatural element that does not follow the premise it can be jarring. > > Actually what bothers me about many of these types of entertainments is that never acknowledge the way the supernatural element should effect the whole world. I have no problem with a book or movie that has vampires, ghosts, or an interventionist god, as long as world makes sense. When the author/creator is trying to push a belief by offering fictional “proof” it tend to come out bad. Hearing the arguments of real world atheists or skeptics breaks disbelief when they come out of the mouths or characters facing obvious supernatural events. Exactly. Supernatural elements don’t bug me - the failure of nerve which causes the writers to make everyone else ignore them because not to do so would force them to think out the implications. There are very few exceptions. The stories from _Unknown_ in the '40s, like **Magic, Incorporated** explored the implications, probably under the prodding of Campbell. The best recent example is Discworld. If you have a werewolf running around, make her a copper, if only for her nose. One of the worst examples is **Ghostbusters II** where after clearly demonstrating the existence of ghosts they are relegated to doing kids parties. Everyone from the Moonies to NSF would be funding the hell out of ghost research if that ever actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/26 "2011-02-02T22:49:45Z")
In all seriousness I’m disappointed by the more recent Scooby Doo cartoons. In the original cartoons the supernatural events always had a perfectly rational explanation. It was Old Man Withers. In the more modern cartoons the supernatural elements are typically real. However I admit to liking shows with supernatural elements. Buffy, X-Files, and the myriad books I’ve read including Dresden Files and others are great examples. I really don’t believe any of it I just find them to be entertaining shows. I hate the ghost hunter shows purporting the existence of ghosts though. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/27 "2011-02-02T23:16:16Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I doubt Creationists became that way because they watched The Flintstones as children. I take it that you are not from Kentucky. [http://futility.typepad.com/futility/2008/10/im-an-outlaw-on-a-dinosaur-i-ride.html](http://futility.typepad.com/futility/2008/10/im-an-outlaw-on-a-dinosaur-i-ride.html) “Out of the House of Flintstones a King will be born” - From a comment in the linked blog about the creationist museum in Kentucky. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/28 "2011-02-02T23:37:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Exactly. Supernatural elements don’t bug me - the failure of nerve which causes the writers to make everyone else ignore them because not to do so would force them to think out the implications. > > There are very few exceptions. The stories from _Unknown_ in the '40s, like **Magic, Incorporated** explored the implications, probably under the prodding of Campbell. The best recent example is Discworld. If you have a werewolf running around, make her a copper, if only for her nose. > > One of the worst examples is **Ghostbusters II** where after clearly demonstrating the existence of ghosts they are relegated to doing kids parties. Everyone from the Moonies to NSF would be funding the hell out of ghost research if that ever actually happened. There are a number of book series that try to explore this fully. Christopher Stasheff’s [A Wizard in Rhyme](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Stasheff#A_Wizard_in_Rhyme) series takes a academic from what looks like our reality and plops him into one were wizards, witches, saints, and demons are real and interact in the world. It does a good job of addressing both how things like faith change and how this is different than true reality. There is also the [Heirs of Alexandria](http://www.webscription.net/c-28-heirs-of-alexandria-series-by-mercedes-lackey-eric-flint-and-dave-freer.aspx) which takes place a world where the supernatural is common. Both are less zany and more realistic than Discworld (not that I don’t love Discworld) and make more of an effort to build a consistent world. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/29 "2011-02-03T04:24:59Z")
> [@statsman1982](#): > > I agree with the sentiment that fiction, by its very definition, doesn’t have to reflect reality. I agree, but science fiction does have to _reflect_ reality. What is reality? I probably don’t know but I do know that it can be _distorted_. ---
**Author:** ![heathen\_earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/13edae/32.png) [@heathen\_earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heathen_earthling)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/30 "2011-02-03T04:38:28Z")
Vaguely related, I saw my first non-forum usage of “woo” today. A poster on a Chicago train advertizing _American Dad_ had been vandalized to read “Be Nice To America, or We’ll Bring [Democracy] **Woo-Woo** to Your Country!” I guess some Dopers like to write on the posters in trains. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/31 "2011-02-03T04:49:01Z")
I must’ve been the one who wrote the post referred to by the OP. I picked on Medium and The Ghost Whisperer because they came to mind when I thought of examples of TV shows that could make yankees look stupid. I wasn’t trying to argue that the supernatural be verboten in alles der fiktionbooken because I’m a fantasy nazi. I named some other shows, too. COPS, for one. IMO, COPS is a much better show than the other ones. It’s educational. Odesio, I feel your pain. I grew up on the rationalist Scooby Doo and was disappointed when I watched _Scooby Doo on Zombie Island_ with my stepson. They totally cheated. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/32 "2011-02-03T05:43:29Z")
The unrealism I worry about most isn’t supernatural or pseudoscience. It’s things like _24_. Someone who believes that magic is real will at worst accidentally stick a wand up their nose. Someone who buys into pseudoscience might avoid the kind of medicine or whatever that actually works, but they’re probably only hurting themselves. But someone who accepts the fantasy that it’s OK to torture because if you don’t, _millions of people will die!_, will turn into a psychopath. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/33 "2011-02-03T19:05:22Z")
You can have my fantasy books when you pry them out of my cold, dead hands. Now get off my property before I set the werewolves on you. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/34 "2011-02-03T21:26:11Z")
And you can have my X-Files when you pry them from my cold, dead hands. Nothing pisses me off more than hearing maybe I should give up one of my joys because some people are rock stupid and don’t have any sense and believe everything they see on TV. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/35 "2011-02-03T21:50:21Z")
Yeah, nobody was saying that you should. The whole thread’s a strawman and you can unclench your butts. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/36 "2011-02-04T18:37:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No. The vast majority of people who watched the X-Files new it was fictional. The fact that there’s some minority of sub-morons who thought it was a documentary should not be used as an excuse to deny everyone else a little light entertainment. You’ve said what I wanted to say. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/37 "2011-02-04T19:36:02Z")
As a general rule, I don’t think fiction “should” do much of anything, besides entertain. I liked 24, but I wasn’t going to pretend [this guy](http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Entertainment/images-5/kiefer-sutherland-the-lost-boys.jpg) should help me form my opinions of foreign policy. Sure, some people will, but, well, you can’t fix stupid, and I don;t think society should cater everything to the lowest common denominator. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872/38 "2011-02-05T02:06:39Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > I must’ve been the one who wrote the post referred to by the OP. I picked on Medium and The Ghost Whisperer because they came to mind when I thought of examples of TV shows that could make yankees look stupid. Look stupid _to who_? Not Brits. If you believed British TV, you’d believe that the UK was overrun by demons (Apparitions, Strange, Hex, Demons), aliens and other weirdos (Dr Who, Torchwood), superheros (My Hero, Misfits), ghosts (Afterlife, Being Human) and the occasional time tear let in dinosaurs and megafauna who eat people(Primeval). As for the OP, absolutely not. None of us want to live in a world where people aren’t allowed to escape the humdrum of ordinary days through fiction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fictional-entertainment-never-encourage-supernatural-thinking/569872.md?page=1)