# Should Fitness Be Considered Obligatory? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 6, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504 "2014-10-06T01:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/121 "2014-10-08T11:07:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Having read through a fair amount of your bloviation here **Waymore** , there should be a taboo about people expressing their superficially gained judgements about other people. The taboo should be even greater when such expression would serve no intent of godwill and would in fact do nothing other than cause harm. People who do that are meanspirited. Or stupid. Or both. > > People of course are entitled to posses those judgements, the taboo should be against acting on them. I do not believe that there should be a taboo about being an idiot but there should be a taboo against allowing one’s idiocy to cause harm to others. > > There certainly is good reason for a society as a whole to encourage behaviors that result in healthier outcomes for its citizens. That is explicitly however not the conversation you want to have. You want some sort of blessing to be rude and obnoxious (and about fatness not fitness, despite your op) without even fooling yourself (as many who do that do) that doing such is for the object of their scorn’s own good. You really are not concerned about other’s fitness, or even about other’s fatness, but about your freedom to express your negative preconceptions based on nothing other than someone’s looks. > > But yes, there _should_ be a taboo against _that_. You’re shaming me you cruel person. How dare you. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/122 "2014-10-08T11:13:57Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And for the third time you haven’t provided a useful answer. Give me examples of precisely how this would manifest itself in society. What should I say to my friends who don’t exercise? Should I refuse to spend time with them? Should I criticize their food choices when we dine together? Give me some concrete examples of how I should express my thoughts. Because without some details it’s very difficult for me to put your plan into action. You know what’s coming, but you seem to enjoy the dance, so here goes. You should not pretend that destroying ones’s health is simply a matter of personal taste. You’re a big kid, it’s not up to me to tell you how to act on this information. Spice Weasel, if you happen to read this, this is a solid example of obfusction. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/123 "2014-10-08T11:23:27Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > I stumbled upon [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=705746&page=5) thread and found it very interesting. It showcased a lot of the debate about fat shaming, body image, etc. > > It got me to thinking, should at least a minimal amount of attention to personal fitness be considered obligatory? Obligatory in the same way our culture deems brushing your teeth or supporting oneself if at all possible to be obligatory.\* > > Personally, I think it should. I know people of all different backgrounds, and I can count on one hand the number of people who honestly can’t help being out of shape. But there are a lot of things that a person can do to extend their life. Like maintain a strong social network, [marry](http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2012/11/14/study-married-couples-live-longer-healthier-lives-than-singles/), engage in continuous learning, eat a calorie-restrictive diet, eat a [vegetarian](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/04/vegetarians-death-premature-longevity-live-longer_n_3380781.html) diet, avoid taking anti-psychotics, etc. If you don’t have all of these boxes checked, then you’re not in a position to lecture someone else. And that “someone else” may have all these boxes checked off except for fitness…giving them all the “right” in the world to slack off. In such a case, you would have no idea if they are at a risk for premature death or anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/124 "2014-10-08T11:27:02Z")
**DSeid** , I would say fitness is qualitatively different from smoking or wearing seatbelts, for several reasons. It is harder to define, harder to measure, harder to identify and harder to enforce. Smoking and wearing seatbelts are specific activities that can be stopped or started at a moment’s notice but fitness is a quality of being that changes gradually over time. It cannot be managed in the same way (which is not say it cannot be managed at all). These differences make it harder to frame policies around. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/125 "2014-10-08T11:53:20Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > You know what’s coming, but you seem to enjoy the dance, so here goes. You should not pretend that destroying ones’s health is simply a matter of personal taste. You’re a big kid, it’s not up to me to tell you how to act on this information. Just what I thought was coming. I won’t pretend that pushing your preferences on others is socially antagonistic and morally bankrupt. Your only goal is to feel superior, just admit that and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/126 "2014-10-08T12:01:49Z")
So you don’t care about changing people’s outcomes. What the OP’s “taboo” really amounts to is social approval to be openly obnoxious and demeaning towards people who you think aren’t fit enough or choose not to engage in the activities you choose. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/127 "2014-10-08T12:16:56Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Just what I thought was coming. I won’t pretend that pushing your preferences on others **isn’t** socially antagonistic and morally bankrupt. Your only goal is to feel superior, just admit that and move on. Oops, typo spotted too late to edit. Typos aren’t a matter of personal taste, people. They’re destroying your ability to communicate and you should be ashamed of making them. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/128 "2014-10-08T12:30:28Z")
Weedy, unfitness can be altered as quickly as quitting smoking can and possibly more easily. Waymore, hopefully you are intelligent enough to comprehend the difference between the two. If not then not much I can do. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/129 "2014-10-08T14:42:39Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > That’s not the question. Should it carry a taboo is the question in this thread. Not if the taboo is effective, not if some people find the taboo shaming, none of that. If someone proposes an idea, it’s common sense to ask about the implications and effectiveness of putting that idea into practice, and you’ve been very sketchy on details anyway. If you’re going to ask your question, I’m going to ask mine. The fact that you don’t want to answer just confirms what I’d already figured out. > [@](#): > > It really is incredible to me that no doubt intelligent, well meaning folks go way out of their way to be offend by somebody stating a blatant, pertinent fact. You’re not really stating facts. You’re close to some facts, and everything else has been vague. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/130 "2014-10-08T20:34:06Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Weedy, unfitness can be altered as quickly as quitting smoking can and possibly more easily. > > Waymore, hopefully you are intelligent enough to comprehend the difference between the two. If not then not much I can do. If a person is smoking a cigarette, and they shouldn’t be (for whatever reason), someone can tell them to put it out and get instant compliance. If someone is unfit and they shouldn’t be, there is nothing anyone can do in that moment to fix it. I think one thing that has helped reduce smoking is that there are many places where you are not allowed to smoke. It would be much more drastic to disallow unfitness in the same way. > [@Waymore](#): > > Agreed. When I’ve said that telling the truth about others health is not wrong, I was doing it as a rebuttal of all the appeals to shame this topic elicits. > > I agree to an extent. It’s important to think about consequences. But it’s impossible for me as an individual to speak for society writ large. > > Do I think society would be better if being intentionally unfit were a taboo like smoking or not brushing your teeth? I don’t know honestly. Probably, but not immediately. Either way, it should be taboo. > > But fitness isn’t only valuable as a means to an end, even though it is valuable for reducing human misery. Fitness is also an end in itself. So the value of fitness isn’t contingent on whether or not it reduces public health costs or extended lives, etc. I think a large part of the debate here is between people for whom being right, or even righteous (as in, morally right) is a goal, or valuable, in itself and people for whom being right is not as important as being kind or helpful or practical. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/131 "2014-10-08T21:21:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You want some sort of blessing to be rude and obnoxious (and about fatness not fitness, despite your op) without even fooling yourself (as many who do that do) that doing such is for the object of their scorn’s own good. I don’t think anything **Waymore** has said in this thread warrants that conclusion. He has explicitly stated that is not the case and I don’t think assuming he’s lying is going to help in the understanding of his argument. Taken more charitably it sounds like what he’s saying is that being fit should be considered at least as important as brushing your teeth. It’s hard to argue with that. I think taking the whole idea of ‘‘taboo’’ and running with it as some kind of invitation to broad social sanction has distorted the intended message. How people are going to enforce this new social norm is going to vary dramatically from person to person. Sort of like how some people will openly mock people who have poor personal hygiene and others will just sort of look the other way while silently thinking, ‘‘dude, it would be really cool if you brushed your teeth.’’ And how some people will brush their teeth excessively for fear of social sanction and others will not give a damn. For some people there is an implied value judgment, for others there isn’t. It just depends on the person. Of course even reframing it this way my knee-jerk reaction is still ''to what end?" **Waymore** sees fitness as an end in itself. I’m not even sure I would agree with that, but some people really really really like exercise. The closest I have to that in my life is writing. I don’t write for any purpose other than to enjoy writing. It is an end in itself. I wouldn’t want to make writing socially obligatory, though, because I’m cool with people being into different things than I am. If everybody focused on writing then nobody would focus on making paper for me to write on and ultimately our society would be screwed. That is perhaps where we have the fundamental disconnect. > [@Waymore](#): > > Spice Weasel, if you happen to read this, this is a solid example of obfusction. Sorry, man, I still think you’re being really vague. The reason people keep trying to attach a motive to you, warranted or not, is that you haven’t revealed one. People are having a very difficult time understanding why anyone would want to make something socially obligatory unless there weren’t an implied value judgment. That’s actually a pretty rational response on their part. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/132 "2014-10-08T21:36:24Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Sorry, man, I still think you’re being really vague. The reason people keep trying to attach a motive to you, warranted or not, is that you haven’t revealed one. People are having a very difficult time understanding why anyone would want to make something socially obligatory unless there weren’t an implied value judgment. That’s actually a pretty rational response on their part. My impression is he is saying: fitness is a good and important thing and he shouldn’t get grief for saying so. Other people should get grief for denying it. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/133 "2014-10-08T21:46:11Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > My impression is he is saying: fitness is a good and important thing and he shouldn’t get grief for saying so. Other people should get grief for denying it. It’s the latter part I think may be problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/134 "2014-10-08T22:42:04Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > It’s the latter part I think may be problematic. If it was evolution vs. Creationism, I think few people on this board would have a problem with decrying or denouncing the side they think is wrong. Even if that did only serve to further entrench them in their position (which I think it probably does). Unfitness is not approached in the same way, mostly, I think, because people want to be helpful about it. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/135 "2014-10-08T23:01:17Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > If it was evolution vs. Creationism, I think few people on this board would have a problem with decrying or denouncing the side they think is wrong. Even if that did only serve to further entrench them in their position (which I think it probably does). Unfitness is not approached in the same way, mostly, I think, because people want to be helpful about it. If someone is all up in my face telling me that God created us and the dinosaurs in six days, I will gladly tell them to go sit their ignorant behind down somewhere and STFU. But if someone simply confesses that they don’t believe in evolution and they aren’t being argumentative or sanctimonious, then I’m going to leave them be. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/136 "2014-10-09T01:17:32Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > Other people should get grief for denying it. No one is denying that fitness is good. What we are denying is that nagging and annoying people who aren’t fit is a good way to operate in society. ---
**Author:** ![butterfiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@butterfiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butterfiles)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/137 "2014-10-09T02:17:20Z")
My nurse last night advised me to drink less diet pepsi because I might form a kidney stone (I have no history of them). I drink soda lots and also some water. I am a healthy body weight but not active due to disability which includes breathing issues. Last night, she needed to take two cigarette breaks and does not see a problem with possible second hand smoke coming in from the outside through the air conditioner. She’s a nice lady. But come on. So yeah, the typical diet & fitness “advice” remains at about that level. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/138 "2014-10-09T03:20:50Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I don’t think anything **Waymore** has said in this thread warrants that conclusion. … Many of the rest of us are reading what he has posted and think otherwise. [Fitness is good; unfitness (and the realted but not identicle construct, sedentary lifestyle) are unhealthy.](http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/122/16/1637.full) No problem. Pretty much wide agreement. Saying that? Fine. I say it all the time myself and offend no one. What he wants is not to say that. What he wants is to have public approval for calling out those individuals who he has assessed as not being fit, societal approval to subject those who he so identifies to a social taboo and to himself be exempt from social taboos against rudeness and public idiocy. His freedom to enforce “fitness” as a social construct and to use his impressions of body composition, the abiity to climb a flight of stairs, and whether or not someone is on medications for hypertension, as the alleged markers of fitness or the lack thereof, with no pretension that any good would result, is _explicitly_ what **Waymore** has stated is what should be. “Fitness” is in fact a sometimes nebulous concept. Is it exclusively cardiorespiratory fitness? And if so short distance or endurance activity? Does it include measures of strength? Flexibility? Power? The medical literature uses it in the cardiorespiratory sense but commonsense includes broader usages. “Unfitness” is a bit narrower. Basically it means a sedentary lifestyle and an exercise capacity of less than 6 METS. Sometimes 4. **Waymore** however is more than a bit confused over what either means. [Fitness is not unfatness.](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0033062013001552) Unfitness is not fatness. Fit individuals can be fat. Fit indiduals can eat crap. Many thin individuals are very unfit. Many are sedentary. Fatness and crap eating are separate risk factors, not measures of fitness. **Waymore** somewhat ignorantly states that he believes that he should draw conclusions about someone’s fitness based on his assessment of their body composition and what he observes of their food choices and with that concluson in hand he should tell them that they “are making a mistake.” He is under no illusion that doing such serves any good to the individual or to society and he explictily does not care whether or not he cause that person some harm: “that’s on them.” Honestly while I certainly can agree that **Waymore** is extremely inarticulate in expressing his/her position and intent, I can in no way comprehend how it can be read in the manner that you are attempting to parse it. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/139 "2014-10-09T03:30:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Honestly while I certainly can agree that **Waymore** is extremely inarticulate in expressing his/her position and intent, I can in no way comprehend how it can be read in the manner that you are attempting to parse it. If anyone is an expert on this subject it is you. I’m trying to parse it in the most charitable way possible because I don’t want to ascribe malicious intent where none exists. Honestly I still have no idea what the hell is going on in this thread. I am no closer to understanding than I was when I joined the conversation. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/140 "2014-10-09T12:10:35Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Sorry, man, I still think you’re being really vague. The reason people keep trying to attach a motive to you, warranted or not, is that you haven’t revealed one. People are having a very difficult time understanding why anyone would want to make something socially obligatory unless there weren’t an implied value judgment. That’s actually a pretty rational response on their part. I’ll break it down. Telemark insists that I give him some sort of step by step action plan for dealing with somebody neglecting their health. Once I’m done giving him this plan, he’ll raise objections, which I’m suppose to to rebut, but he’ll raise objections to that, and so on. All that instead of just saying “Yes, people shouldn’t neglect their health, and people who say as much are not wrong to do so.” There’s other ways people have avoided the question. 1. Trying to equate my statement to fat shaming, then attacking that act. Despite saying unfit doesn’t equal fat, posting pictures of men with higher body fat that are fit, etc. 2. Ad hominem attacks on what my motives are: I want power, I want to express my disgust, etc. 3. Making the issue seem so incredibly complex that we can’t even say what healthy means. 4. Making appeals to emotion, as if we should never say anything that someone else might not like, even if it’s true and important. 5. Trying to misconstrue looking negatively on neglecting ones health into some sort of intrusion, not minding you own business, etc. Health is very important, but that’s only part of my intrest. Taking care of your health is clearly and umambiguously in the same category as brushing teeth, basic literacy, avoiding addiction, etc. But, it is something a lot of people would rather avoid than admit. We’re not doing anybody a favor by helping them deny the truth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504.md?page=8)