# Should Fitness Be Considered Obligatory? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 6, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504 "2014-10-06T01:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![butterfiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@butterfiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butterfiles)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/161 "2014-10-09T14:08:03Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Waymore** the word “taboo” has particular meanings, which you then vaiably claim you do not mean. How about we try to get a better understanding of what you think you are trying to say by getting you to identify which of the following statements you disagree with, if any. > > 1. There currently is no social taboo against being fat in American society. > 2. There curently is no social taboo against being unfit in American society. > 3. I can tell who is unfit and who is making an effort to become fit by looking at them and knowing what they ate for lunch. > 4. A thin person is almost always fit. > 5. If someone is on medication for hypertension or diabetes they are likely not making an effort to achieve fitness. Those are signs of people who are not taking care of their health. > 6. Once I conclude that someone I have met is unfit there should NOT exist any social taboo against stating that to the person that they are unfit and unhealthy. If that shames them then that is their issue not mine. > 7. There exists no reason to tell anyone my belief about whether or not they are unhealthy. I am not telling them because I believe it will serve any benefit to anyone. > 8. If someone is fat the odds are great they are lazy and undisciplined. > Which of those, if any, do you disagree with? > > Lastly a multiple choice: > > I believe that when I encounter someone who violates what I consider to be a social taboo, such as someone who did not brush their teeth or who appears to me as if they must be unfit, I should: > > a) Say something to them about it. > b) Avoid the person. > c) Only say something to them if they are a close friend or close family member or if specifically asked by the person for my thoughts on the matter, and otherwise keep it to myself. > d) Only in the case of a spouse should I express thoughts about their violation of the taboo without being asked for my thoughts by the person. > Thanks in advance for the clarifications! Wow, I’m dizzy just looking at these, good questions by the way, if not pertinent at least interesting. I vote for c and/or d! ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/162 "2014-10-09T14:18:51Z")
> [@butterfiles](#): > > How do you define neglect of health? And how do you apply that to people, in life? > > See the thing is, I’m pretty sure taboos are damn specific. Like don’t commit incest or eat people. Even the less serious taboos are still specific, like women wearing pants in 1890 New York or using certain words in speech. I’m trying to think of a nebulous taboo & can’t come up with one. Also, I could get behind a general taboo or rule: Neglecting health is bad (however that might be defined). But to apply it to a specific person, how would I even know who to pick out for that? Your co-worker (acquaintance, best friend, love of your life, or joe shmo who just started) eating fries & then complaining about the walk outside to the parking lot during a fire drill might be indicative that there is a problem. Or maybe Joe underwent chemo two years ago, developed heart failure as a secondary effect of the chemo, find it hard to walk on some days, but is so happy to be alive that he has decided to chuck it all, he wants his damn fries. It’s not the same as seeing Joe sit down in the canteen/cafeteria and microwave a baby for lunch. And I’m not saying that you’re saying it’s the same. Here’s the thing, and I’m really not trying to be quarrelsome. It strains credulity that anybody with necessary literacy skills to read and respond to stuff on a message board doesn’t have a working idea of what is meant by taboo, especially when the analogy of brushing teeth is offered up. I know anthropologists have very refined notions of taboo, but that’s a separate matter. You and I as reasonably intelligent adults know what is meant. Ditto for what it means to neglect health. Honestly, I think if I asked something like “What’s the best way to remove a grape juice stain from my carpet.”, nobody would ask what I mean by “stain”, because nobody is emotionally invested in it. But if you start to mention that a lot of folks are out of shape, or that maybe certain other folk think that’s a damned shame, then everybody becomes Noah Webster. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/163 "2014-10-09T14:29:08Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > None of that is pertinent. What impact does my opinion on any of that have on your ability to answer a yes or no question? Because none of us understand your question. You use terms like taboo without defining them. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/164 "2014-10-09T14:35:31Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Because none of us understand your question. You use terms like taboo without defining them. See post 162 supra. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/165 "2014-10-09T15:10:14Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > See post 162 supra. Again, not really answering the question. Let’s compare it to someone who doesn’t brush their teeth on a twice daily schedule. I actually know a few people who I suspect don’t. What actions do I take to enforce the societal taboo? Tell them to their face that they should start brushing? Leave anonymous notes? Leave toothpaste on their desk? Speak openly and loudly about halitosis in a general fashion? Call their dentist? Now apply that to someone who eats a diet I consider unhealthy and/or doesn’t exercise. I know lots more people that would qualify under this category. What should I do to enforce society’s taboo? > [@](#): > > You and I as reasonably intelligent adults know what is meant. Ditto for what it means to neglect health. I won’t speak for others, but I really don’t know what is meant by taboo in this context. In my mind, either one exists or it doesn’t. By most measure I think people would agree that those who are unfit, especially the obese, are looked down on and on the receiving end of lots of unflattering comments and messages. It appears to me that there already is a taboo. It doesn’t appear to be working if your goal is to have more people eat healthy and take care of themselves but the taboo is already in place. As for neglecting one’s health, there are lots of folks who believe that eating meat is unhealthy. I disagree with them. But if they were in the majority would you think it acceptable to apply the same social taboo to meat eaters? If not, why not? For the most part, everyone here agrees with you that it’s best for people to be healthy, well read, and engaged. But in a society that also values individual choice and personal responsibility there is going to push back when you try to enforce these ideals no matter how well intentioned. When you talk about a taboo it brings to mind the concepts of slut-shaming and fat-shaming that seem mean-spirited and in turn are ineffective. That may not be your intent, but without some details around your terms it’s not clear what distinguishes your intent from those. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/166 "2014-10-09T15:12:54Z")
Okay. You want to ask a question that can best be parsed by most readers only one way and do not like the answers given. “Should all dogs be killed? By which I do not mean end their lives. Yes or no?” Yes we know what “killed” means and we know what “taboo” means; we get frustrated when you use the word and then deny it means that meaning. And you refuse to clarify by endorsing or denying positions you seem to have taken in this thread. Fine. The issue in this thread is that you have been understood, pretty clearly understood, to have taken all the positions I listed, some very explicitly. If any of that is because of miscommunications this is your chance to so clarify. You do not want to. Again, so be it. I think most others would have no problem agreeing or diagreeing with the list and picking one or two from the multiple choice. Moreover I think most here can state they agree with the following: 1. There currently exists a strong social taboo against fatness in American society held even by many who objectively are members of the class. Less so against unfitness. 2. The fat can be fit and the thin unfit and sedentary; using appearence alone to decide who has what behaviors will in many cases result in false conclusions. Having hypertension or diabetes, let alone treating it, is not proof of not taking care of ones health. 3. It is healthier to be fit than unfit and/or sedentary at any level of fatness. No one pretends otherwise. 4. Given a level of fitness it is healthier to not be obese than to be obese. No one pretends otherwise. 5. There should be a social taboo against offering your unsolicited opinions about other people’s health habits unless they directly impact you (such as by smoking where you have to breathe it in); this social taboo does NOT imply anything about whether or not society should implement broad measures that encourage healthier habits, such as rules about smoking in public, taxation, PSAs, changes to the built environment, etc. The latter is a different discussion. Shaming someone who violates that taboo is sometimes appropriate. 6. Someone being fat does not mean they are lazy or undisciplined. (Even if it does imply that they do not have the level of discipline required to reverse extant obesity.) And I will add in 7) “Taboo” means establishing a social standard (not a health standard) and enforcing that standard by some social pressure means. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/167 "2014-10-09T15:19:45Z")
And no, I do not believe that there should be a social pressure, at least not a negative/punitive social pressure, placed by individuals and groups to enforce a standard of fitness, lack of unfitness, or lack of fatness. Societal measures to encourage and facilitate fitness I heartily endorse. I’ve answered your “Yes or no” - will you reconsider and answer my agree or disagrees? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/168 "2014-10-09T15:35:32Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > It does actually. Making the topic seem very complex when it’s not. Every time someone proposes what they commonly understand as the meaning of and practical consequences if “taboo,” you reject it. So if someone is making this complex then it’s you. > [@](#): > > Should it be considered taboo to neglect health? That’s all. > > I’m not asking if such a taboo already exists, I’m not asking if a taboo is an effective way to change behavior, I’m not trying to flesh out all the possible implications. Justthat one question. So you want everyone to ignore what they think you might mean and remove all context from your statement and then ask if people agree with you. Why should anyone bother? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/169 "2014-10-09T16:40:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > … Why should anyone bother? Well at this point because there is an unpoken taboo in this particular community against extremely poor communication and moreso against those who when asked to clarify the communication by multiple posters blame everyone else for “misunderstanding” them and merely say things like “see supra”. So, at this point, to point and laugh, one example of enforcing a social taboo, and a taboo is defined by the fact that it incites enforcement reactions. I was going to put a smiley face here but upon minimal reflection it is not a joke. The reactions of posters in this thread in many ways actually do illustrate some ways in which taboos are dealt with and what it really means. Around here the point of posting is to communicate ideas and exchange them. When someone posts in a manner that fails to communicate, be it too much textspeak, wall-of-text, or as per this op behavior, saying something that means something and when people respond to that meaning saying they did not mean that and refusing to engage in any attempt to clarify, it violates that social norm, that expectation. Posters here tried to enforce the social norm, in a very polite manner to be sure, but as the behavior persisted increasingly demonstrating frustration. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/170 "2014-10-09T17:48:42Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Neglecting your health is slow motion suicide. If you value slow motion suicide, you’re values are wrong. I don’t “value slow motion suicide”, I value enjoying eating a lot and I value avoiding the suffering of exercise. I don’t believe undertaking something you hate just to prolong life a little longer is worth it, and I don’t consider not doing it suicide. Smokers don’t intend to kill themselves, they intend to enjoy that cigarette at that time. > [@Telemark](#): > > Again, not really answering the question. Let’s compare it to someone who doesn’t brush their teeth on a twice daily schedule. I actually know a few people who I suspect don’t. What actions do I take to enforce the societal taboo? Tell them to their face that they should start brushing? Leave anonymous notes? Leave toothpaste on their desk? Speak openly and loudly about halitosis in a general fashion? Call their dentist? I sometimes don’t brush my teeth at night. I brush them in morning and chew gum after I have eaten. I really doubt you would smell anything bad off my breath. Just like my fatness, my not brushing at night has no impact on you. I see my dentist three times a year and have no dire prognosis from him. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/171 "2014-10-10T18:18:17Z")
**gigi** , I am, given the nature of this thread, certainly not telling you what you should do. I cannot however stop myself from commenting on your post … 1. The cost is not just the failure to prolong life a little bit. The life prolongation bit is likely relatively modest on average (albeit for the one who avoided the early heart attack they would have had may a two or more decades); the bigger deal is the avoidance of early physical and cognitive disability while living nearly as long. That is the more likely more common outcome. 2. The biggest benefits in terms of health are usually gained with the least change, especially in regards to fitness. Even just walking a bit is a huge increase in health outcomes [over constant sitting](http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/17/sit-less-live-longer/) on one’s duff. Formal exercise is not required to at least incorporate some movement into daily activities and even brief periods of formal exercise a few times a week result in huge risk reduction benefits. The biggest return on the investment to nutrition and fitness is with the first units invested. One can still enjoy eating and not have to sweat half an hour a day and have significant health risk reductions. 3. How _do_ you respond to those who point out that the costs of your possible future but very avoidable future prolonged disability and disease states will be borne not only by you but by society as a whole through insurance rates or taxation or both? ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/172 "2014-10-11T00:45:08Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > I’ve never said anything about enforcement. Read the thread title, note the use of the word “considered”. Do you think that people should hold the same opinion about neglecting health that most do about things like brushing teeth and basic literacy? > > And can we please stop talking about fat people? I don’t know how many times I’ve said this isn’t about fatness. The problem is words like ‘taboo’ and ‘obligatory’ do imply enforcement. That’s why you are getting so much pushback. Fitness is nowhere near as important as literacy in today’s society, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/173 "2014-10-11T02:33:16Z")
I’m going to leave off responding to any specific posts because we’re going in circles, posting the same stuff over and over again. If you’re still unable to answer at this point, I doubt anything will ever satisfy you enough to give a simple yes/no answer to the question. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/174 "2014-10-11T02:44:50Z")
Funny enough I’ve given you a simple yes/no (“supra post 167”) - it was “no” and for reasons expounded upon and of which I would be happy to further clarify if they were not understood- but you declined to answer any questions in return. By funny I mean in its very predictible and sad to pathetic meaning. Not funny in any witty way. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/175 "2014-10-11T02:52:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Funny enough I’ve given you a simple yes/no (“supra post 167”) - it was “no” and for reasons expounded upon and of which I would be happy to further clarify if they were not understood- but you declined to answer any questions in return. > > By funny I mean in its very predictible and sad to pathetic meaning. Not funny in any witty way. Nice ad hominem. Proof positive this topic is too emotional for most people to look at it with a level head. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/176 "2014-10-11T04:39:32Z")
NM. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/177 "2014-10-11T05:40:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > 1. How _do_ you respond to those who point out that the costs of your possible future but very avoidable future prolonged disability and disease states will be borne not only by you but by society as a whole through insurance rates or taxation or both? It’s a gamble. I may or may not have prolonged disease or disability. I am assuming that this won’t be a sudden thing, that there will be some warning as my numbers get worse and while it may not all be reversible, I would have a chance to change and not cause too much cost. I also have paid in for many years and not cost my employer much. And if the disease is something like cancer, I don’t plan to get treated, so I will save the public a little bit there. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/178 "2014-10-11T05:45:58Z")
[Submitted for your consideration.](http://startingstrength.com/articles/barbell_medicine_sullivan.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/179 "2014-10-11T19:50:43Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > It’s a gamble. I may or may not have prolonged disease or disability. I am assuming that this won’t be a sudden thing, that there will be some warning as my numbers get worse and while it may not all be reversible, I would have a chance to change and not cause too much cost. I also have paid in for many years and not cost my employer much. And if the disease is something like cancer, I don’t plan to get treated, so I will save the public a little bit there. For you as an individual it is a gamble but to society a population of those making the same choices as you presents no gamble. One person may or may not have costly consequences, can beat the odds, but the population will, without question, cost the rest of us a large amount, annual estimate close to $150 billion. It is true that some harms are partially reversible (and better late then never for good nutrition and fitness) but not all are and not to the point that the costs to the rest of us if they occur are not still very substantial. Again, the decrease in years of life is not as huge as the number of years alive but significantly disabled both cognitively and physically. These will be years that you could have been working and paying taxes but instead will be (statistically speaking, maybe maybe not for you as an individual, just as not every smoker gets cancer or heart disease from their choice) much more likely in an extended care facility instead. The evidence that even a modest effort to have a diet high in vegetables, fruits, and whole grains, along with modest effort at, if not fitness then at least not being completely sedentary, will make one less likely to end up shuffling away for years unable to think clearly and more likely to stay a productive citizen longer (or to enjoy one’s retirement if so opted) is pretty dang convincing. Curious though … what numbers are you watching and what results on them would get you to say “Okay, those have crossed the line and it is time to change my ways.”? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504/180 "2014-10-11T22:28:19Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > [Submitted for your consideration.](http://startingstrength.com/articles/barbell_medicine_sullivan.pdf) I ignore fanatics. Fanatics believe their pastime is the cure for everything. “Depressed? Lift weights! Tired? Lift weights! Alcoholic? Lift weights! End-stage pancreatic cancer? Lift weights!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-fitness-be-considered-obligatory/700504.md?page=10)