This is not a rebuttal to any point made in the post.
And why make the claim about “socially disadvantaged” people, besides the obvious class-baiting?
This person, these people, and these people are socially disadvantaged. They’re also fit.
All beside the point. This just another appeal to emotion. People chose to be unfit.
Sure, I’ll answer this question for the third time. Do no act like being unhealthy is simply a matter of personal taste.
I think a general trend towards being active is good since kids tend to be more sedentary with computers, tv, etc.
But I don’t think it’s so easy to pick out whether a particular person is necessarily adopting a healthier lifestyle because people tend to notice the negatives (look at that bag of cheetos you just ate, oh my God watch out for the gluten!), but we don’t notice or acknowledge the positives unless you are close to the other person (spouse, best friend). I don’t think we have enough perspective to judge acquaintances without risking being the health police and jerks about it to boot. That said, yes if you smoke a pack or two a day for 20 years and I can hear you wheezing, ya did it to yourself. If you are 400 pounds, ya did it to yourself. Being fat is not just about not being able to lose weight; I think it has more to do with the years it took gaining it to get to that point. I’m not talking about people that fluctuate a little with health issues, or pregnancies, aging, different body types (I know healthy people that are just chunky).
So everyone should just do what they can. I’m disabled and use a wheelchair. My “fitness” consists of making sure I stay a normal weight or slightly under (I don’t seek to lose weight but rather just prevent substantial gains). I self-correct my eating once in a while because I reason that I can’t handle being severely disabled and overweight. Not good for me or my caregivers. I try to do a little meditation and yoga too. I don’t come from a family of fitness buffs and I got burned out from a childhood of forced physical therapy many times a week. Point is, everyone should just adopt whatever healthier choices make sense for their life circumstances.
With nieces and nephew coming home from school telling the family what is or isn’t “healthy food” based on what lunch lady Kathy has to say, I’m not looking forward to some obligatory fitness advice in the schools. You should hear some of the weird food science/nutrition stuff they’re teaching today’s kids.
Then who cares if it’s taboo?
That’s not the question. Should it carry a taboo is the question in this thread. Not if the taboo is effective, not if some people find the taboo shaming, none of that.
It really is incredible to me that no doubt intelligent, well meaning folks go way out of their way to be offend by somebody stating a blatant, pertinent fact.
If ''should it carry a taboo?" is the question, you have to operationally define ‘‘taboo.’’
Dictionary defines taboo as
So the question is, should we prohibit discussion of unhealthy behaviors or make it socially inappropriate to associate with people who exhibit unhealthy behaviors?
Before i answer whether or not it should be a taboo, I need to understand the purpose of it being taboo. A taboo without a purpose is meaningless to me. My personal understanding of taboos as a social phenomenon is that they exist to discourage behaviors that are deemed inappropriate.
But you don’t seem to agree with that definition.
Since we’ve already established that shaming is not terribly effective at changing behavior, and you’ve made it clear you have no interest in changing others’ behavior, I’m not really sure what your point is. Should you be able to just like, think badly of people who aren’t fit? Is that basically what you’re asking?
We all have a Gricean, good faith understanding of what is meant by “taboo.” I even used the analogy of oral hygiene, which elucidated it quite well I think. Quibbling over the exact definition of “taboo” is semantics.
If you’ve read through the thread I linked to in the OP, and especially if you read a lot of the commentary on the picture that provoked the original thread, it becomes very obvious that there are legions of people who’d rather get butthurt and complain about body shaming instead of just facing facts.
You can’t cram your body with salt and sugar and maintain a daily caloric excess while avoid physical activity at all hazards without paying an incredibly high price for it. And I’m not the party to blame for saying you’re fucking up by doing so.
That’s why I started this thread, to see if the reaction would be as strong without the specific example of Maria Kang to exacerbate things.
I might agree with you if I understood what the hell you were talking about. I’m not even saying that’s your fault, but when I try to clarify and you tell me it’s just a matter of semantics, I find that frustrating.
I seriously do not understand your purpose in starting this thread, unless it’s just to have a platform to air your disgust with people who make unhealthy choices. In which case, fine, but don’t be disingenuous about it.
I thought we were talking about fitness so I’m not sure what body shaming has to do with this. I was operating under the assumption that we all agreed fitness is not the same thing as thinness. I don’t think you can tell by looking at a person whether they are fit (unless they are exceptionally fit.) People conflate thinness and fitness all the time, it’s a huge problem. You can’t tell by looking at me that I can do 100 push ups. If you knew me personally you’d probably be able to infer that I am fit because I make time to exercise, but if you met me on the street you would have no fucking clue, I promise.
In our current society, neglecting your health is not a taboo. Being fat is a taboo. I would be a lot happier if it were the other way around, personally, but generally my motivation for wanting a thing to be taboo is to discourage it from happening. Since I see no evidence that a social taboo is effective at changing behavior, I very simply do not see the point of making it taboo.
It sounds to me, and I mean this very sincerely and not with intention to attack, that you want to feel less pushback for being disgusted by people who do not eat nutritiously or exercise regularly. You feel for some reason that you are unfairly maligned for judging people who aren’t healthy.
Am I correct?
Most people do pay a high price for their poor health choices, that is correct. I’d say it’s a pretty significant problem and a lot of people are in denial about the changes they can make to improve their health.
But again, I don’t think it can be overstated how often we confuse thinness with fitness in this society. Fitness is a LOT easier to achieve than thinness. I would argue that one of the primary reasons people fail to maintain healthy behaviors is that they have unrealistic expectations about how fitness will affect the way they look. When people are deriding themselves as failures because they only lost half a pound this week, but they’ve been exercising regularly and eating nutritiously, we have a very serious problem. And it’s a problem that I think is exacerbated by the judgmental attitude toward fat people. It is a problem that would be further exacerbated with any additional taboo/shaming tactics.
So if you actually give a shit about people, taboos are a bad idea.
If you don’t and you would rather judge people than help them, knock yourself out.
Apologies if the tone of this post is overly combative. It’s late.
This response highlights a lot of what I’ve encountered and pointed out in this thread.
Motive mongering: “I seriously do not understand your purpose in starting this thread, unless it’s just to have a platform to air your disgust with people who make unhealthy choices. In which case, fine, but don’t be disingenuous about it.”
Claims of my callousness: 'So if you actually give a shit about people, taboos are a bad idea."
Deflection: “But again, I don’t think it can be overstated how often we confuse thinness with fitness in this society.” {As I’ve said, being fit is not the same as being thin. Why am I being made to answer for society?}
The above and more are drug into such a very, very simple question. I find the obfuscation to be very telling.
I’ve never claimed to repulsed by fat people, that’s conjecture. I am repulsed by people’s reactions.
I am not at all sweating pushback.
[QUOTE=Waymore]
Claims of my callousness: 'So if you actually give a shit about people, taboos are a bad idea."
[/QUOTE]
You explicitly said you don’t care whether a taboo changes anyone’s behavior, so I’m not sure why it’s inappropriate to conclude you don’t care. What people are finding so problematic is this notion that you can create a taboo without having a motive for it. You seem to be claiming you have no motive. That makes no sense.
So I suppose my answer to your question, ''Should fitness be considered obligatory?" is ''On what grounds?"
Can you answer that? Or does it ruin your experiment?
[QUOTE=Waymore]
The above and more are drug into such a very, very simple question. I find the obfuscation to be very telling.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not a simple question at all. It’s a very complex, rich, nuanced, confusing, at times contradictory issue that people seem to think can be simplified down to a pithy phrase or statement. Your insistence that it is very straightforward flies in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary.
Do people do things that are bad for their health and make excuses about it? Absolutely. That’s simple, that’s straightforward.
Should people therefore be socially sanctioned for it? Extremely complicated, not at all straightforward.
Of course people are going to react. People are going to have one of two reactions.
1.) Yes, it should be a taboo because XYZ.
2.) No, it shouldn’t be a taboo because XYZ.
For some reason only people responding in the latter manner are obfuscating. It doesn’t matter what anyone says, you’ll just see it as obfuscation and excuses. There is absolutely no way to win your rigged game.
[QUOTE=Waymore]
Deflection: “But again, I don’t think it can be overstated how often we confuse thinness with fitness in this society.” {As I’ve said, being fit is not the same as being thin. Why am I being made to answer for society?}
[/QUOTE]
Because you are proposing a societal outcome. It’s one thing to have an opinion but another thing entirely to think that opinion warrants the creation of a new social norm. That is what you are proposing. That is a proposition that by its very definition is inextricably linked with society. The way you view this issue as an individual is nowhere near as important as how society views it when it comes to the creation of a taboo.
[QUOTE=Waymore]
I’ve never claimed to repulsed by fat people, that’s conjecture. I am repulsed by people’s reactions.
[/QUOTE]
It’s becoming more clear to me now. I skimmed through the thread you linked. I assumed since I’ve read eighty billion threads just like it that I didn’t have to read it to understand your argument and that was my mistake. There were some pretty sad responses in there. I have no idea whether you care to explore the possible reasons for that.
I’ve answered all these objections in previous posts.
- Of course I care about other peoples’ health, but that’s not at issue. It shouldn’t take some demonstration of my goodwill to answer a simple question.
When I said I don’t care about the impact of the taboo, it was to get people to focus on the question at hand, not burry their answer in babble.
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On what grounds? See posts 18 and 95 supra for starters.
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No, “should there be a taboo” is very straight forward. The implications of that taboo, your reactions to it, etc. may be complex and nuanced, but they’re not at issue.
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The games only rigged insofar as I’ve taking the clearly correct position. So yes, my side is much easier to defend. People obfuscate because they’re trying to defend the indefensible.
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I’m not proposing a societal outcome, I’m asking people their opinion.
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I’m all game for exploring the responses in the other thread. But our discussions of that don’t detract from the simple truth. Neglecting your health is bad and I’m not at fault for saying so.
I find absolutely nothing objectionable about this statement.
But that has nothing to do with the question of whether fitness should be considered obligatory.
[QUOTE=Waymore]
No, “should there be a taboo” is very straight forward. The implications of that taboo, your reactions to it, etc. may be complex and nuanced, but they’re not at issue.
[/QUOTE]
I would argue that the answer to the former is highly dependent on the realities of the latter. So they are indeed at issue. You can’t formulate a response to ''should X?" without considering the potential consequences of X.
If I’m going to establish a new social norm I must be confident that it will create a better society, otherwise I don’t see the point.
It is clear that you think fitness should be considered obligatory. Do you think that if that were the case, we’d be living in a better society? Why or why not?
To further clarify my question, is your personal motive for making fitness obligatory that it will create a better society? If not, what is your motive? Why do you think this is a good idea?
FWIW the things you say remind me a lot of my fitness coach. Sometimes I want to punch him, but thanks to him I’m in the best shape of my life, so I don’t think your perspective is without merit. I don’t think you can truly make long term sustained changes to your health without radically altering the way you approach the obstacles you face. That includes eliminating excuses. It’s actually rather terrifying to change your thinking on such a fundamental level, and it inevitably affects the way you look at every problem in your life, so I understand why people are resistant to it.
I don’t know if you’re a reformed couch potato or if you’ve always been fit, so you may or may not be familiar with the personal transformation that is required. I’m not mentioning it to augment my argument but rather as an interesting side note.
Agreed. When I’ve said that telling the truth about others health is not wrong, I was doing it as a rebuttal of all the appeals to shame this topic elicits.
I agree to an extent. It’s important to think about consequences. But it’s impossible for me as an individual to speak for society writ large.
Do I think society would be better if being intentionally unfit were a taboo like smoking or not brushing your teeth? I don’t know honestly. Probably, but not immediately. Either way, it should be taboo.
But fitness isn’t only valuable as a means to an end, even though it is valuable for reducing human misery. Fitness is also an end in itself. So the value of fitness isn’t contingent on whether or not it reduces public health costs or extended lives, etc.
I’ve struggled with fitness honestly. I was very fit and active up to my mid-20s. I suffered some back injuries, started a family, etc, and let myself go. I’m pulling out of it. But, I’ve always known it was important. I never fooled myself.
Best example I can think of is my dad. He was a paratrooper, an athlete, a construction worker, an all around robust guy. But he smoked and it destroyed his health then killed him. However, he never acted like it was okay or that it wasn’t his fault. He never worried about being shamed.
Along with mistaking different body types for fitness, we also risk mistaking the actual risk of behaviors (sometimes as yet poorly understood) for healthy or unhealthy choices. Add to that we ignore certain risks and tend to forget some of the dangers of being immoderate with other wise healthy behaviours.
It’s seems like weekly we get some new fad on diet that oversimplifies dietary choices and then people push one size fits all solutions by labeling a food as healthy or unhealthy. It takes on an almost religious tone at times. The skies open and suddenly the voices say gluten shall be avoided even by those who are not intolerant. Rarely does that take in to account personal medical history, conditions, the whole of their diet, etc…
Cramming too much salt in to a diet is one “risk” that came up here. If you are a person that isn’t salt sensitive (the majority) it has a small effect on blood pressure. Which person asking for the salt shaker in the work lunch room do I socially pressure? Am I supposed to guess their BP? Do I pressure them all or hide the salt shaker just in case someone is salt sensitive?
Too much vigorous activity actually has increased mortality versus someone who’s more moderate. Are we going to start a social taboo against the chronic marathon runner or triathlete? They look fit. Physically they perform well. They’d be healthier with a little more couch time. Should less fitness be obligatory for them?
Driving is one of the most dangerous things most of us do. Should we start a taboo against long commutes and fast cars?
There’s of course the other point… why are so many so intent on making others live the way they think is best for them?
Having read through a fair amount of your bloviation here Waymore, there should be a taboo about people expressing their superficially gained judgements about other people. The taboo should be even greater when such expression would serve no intent of godwill and would in fact do nothing other than cause harm. People who do that are meanspirited. Or stupid. Or both.
People of course are entitled to posses those judgements, the taboo should be against acting on them. I do not believe that there should be a taboo about being an idiot but there should be a taboo against allowing one’s idiocy to cause harm to others.
There certainly is good reason for a society as a whole to encourage behaviors that result in healthier outcomes for its citizens. That is explicitly however not the conversation you want to have. You want some sort of blessing to be rude and obnoxious (and about fatness not fitness, despite your op) without even fooling yourself (as many who do that do) that doing such is for the object of their scorn’s own good. You really are not concerned about other’s fitness, or even about other’s fatness, but about your freedom to express your negative preconceptions based on nothing other than someone’s looks.
But yes, there should be a taboo against that.
And for the third time you haven’t provided a useful answer. Give me examples of precisely how this would manifest itself in society. What should I say to my friends who don’t exercise? Should I refuse to spend time with them? Should I criticize their food choices when we dine together? Give me some concrete examples of how I should express my thoughts. Because without some details it’s very difficult for me to put your plan into action.
Excluding the middle.