# Should Forcing Prisoners to work be legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2024, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966 "2024-07-29T18:18:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/1 "2024-07-29T18:18:55Z")
Continuing the discussion from [Prison sentence of hard labor–what do they do?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prison-sentence-of-hard-labor-what-do-they-do/1004829): The link was a factual question about what actually constitutes “hard labor”. **I’m wondering why _forced_ work is still even allowed in prisons? Should it be?** It seems really outdated (that’s putting it mildly) and I’d guess it would be considered inhumane treatment under various international treaties. I’d also guess it’s still legal in the USA under the 13th Amendment. I am a bit surprised this is still a thing and there isn’t a push to ban it. Or maybe I’m in a small minority and maybe it’s not that common at all. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/2 "2024-07-29T18:35:12Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > I’m wondering why _forced_ work is still even allowed in prisons? I know it’s not the reason you’re looking for, but it’s allowed because it’s legal. It’s actually [in the constitution](https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt13-S1-1/ALDE_00000992/). > Thirteenth Amendment, Section 1: > > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. > > Section 1 of the Thirteenth Amendment prohibits slavery and involuntary servitude in all places subject to U.S. jurisdiction.[1](https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt13-S1-1/ALDE_00000992/#ALDF_00020597) Since the states ratified the Amendment in 1865, the Supreme Court has decided cases interpreting the Prohibition Clause and applying it to various forms of government or private action. In particular, the Court has examined: (1) whether particular burdens imposed on individuals constitute prohibited badges or incidents of slavery;[2](https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt13-S1-1/ALDE_00000992/#ALDF_00020598) and (2) the meaning of involuntary servitude. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/3 "2024-07-29T18:47:07Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > I’m wondering why _forced_ work is still even allowed in prisons? Should it be? I have had a number of clients over the years that spent time in jail (not prison). By and large they reported that most jobs were in high demand and were seen as a reward for good behavior. There was no forced labor, because for every position there were multiple inmates vying for the job. I don’t know if this is widespread. ---
**Author:** ![Eric1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@Eric1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric1)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/4 "2024-07-29T18:48:10Z")
My neighbor collected prisoners’ surveys for her doctoral thesis about this topic. I helped her process them to send in support of ending forced labor. She said it might end up as a data point on an anendment 200 years from now. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/5 "2024-07-29T18:49:44Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > I have had a number of clients over the years that spent time in jail (i.e. not prison). By and large they reported that most jobs were in high demand and were seen as a reward for good behavior. There was no forced labor, because for every position there were multiple inmates vying for the job. I don’t know if this is widespread. I have read this as well. The worst, inhumane punishment you can do to a prisoner is to force them to be idle. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/6 "2024-07-29T18:52:39Z")
Since the OP is asking about a “should,” and not “is it,” I would say that it should not be legal. If the prisoners are to work, they should also be paid federal minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/7 "2024-07-29T18:55:24Z")
Not forced labor. But working should be part of the life of a prisoner to contribute to the cost of their room and board. If they won’t work to support themselves then they should only be provided the minimum sustenance and care. Prisoners with sufficient financial means who won’t work should have their assets used to pay the full cost of their imprisonment. I don’t think it’s a popular notion, though I don’t understand why people object. Everybody else on earth has to work or pay for their cost of living. I’m not suggesting intensive or dangerous labor, but doing something to defray the cost they’ve placed on society. Even those wrongfully convicted would somehow have to support themselves if they weren’t in prison. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/8 "2024-07-29T18:55:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If the prisoners are to work, they should also be paid federal minimum wage. I could get behind this, but there would have to be a provision that the wages could be attached down to some small number for restitution, fines and child support. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/9 "2024-07-29T18:57:26Z")
Sure, basically wage garnishment. It doesn’t make much sense to impose hefty fines and prison time on a convict if the convict then has no way to earn money to pay that fine. Additionally, many ex-felons struggle mightily with getting their feet underneath them once they are released. They are broke, have no job, no way to make ends meet. This makes recidivism much worse since they turn back to a life of crime to survive. If an inmate were able to earn a considerable amount of money savings while in prison, they could much better then find their way in society once released. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/10 "2024-07-29T19:00:42Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > There was no forced labor, because for every position there were multiple inmates vying for the job. I Of course! Who wants to sit in a tiny cell if they can get out and do something? It’s the same for kids in a classroom. Teachers never have a problem getting kids to do things. They compete for the privilege because it gets them out of their seats and active. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/11 "2024-07-29T19:04:43Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Of course! Who wants to sit in a tiny cell if they can get out and do something? I have often wondered why we have any litter on any street in America, given the huge number of non-violent offenders we have locked up. In my very elementary view of it, there is a huge labor pool of willing workers. Of course, probably any prison guard could give me 100 reasons why. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/12 "2024-07-29T19:25:05Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > Of course, probably any prison guard could give me 100 reasons why. @Little_Nemo and @Qadgop_the_Mercotan both worked in prisons, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/13 "2024-07-29T19:29:14Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Everybody else on earth has to work or pay for their cost of living. Everybody else has their liberty and can apply for jobs, can decide where to live, and so on. Prisoners have had their liberty taken away from them. ---
**Author:** ![InternetLegend](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/internetlegend/32/13154_2.png) [@InternetLegend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InternetLegend)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/14 "2024-07-29T19:30:47Z")
If prisoners are compelled to work, they should be paid actual wages, especially if the state is paying a for-profit company for their incarceration. Otherwise, there’s more of a financial incentive to keep people locked up. One of the problems with slave labor in prisons is that it can end up being state-subsidized competition to non-prison companies. I think one of the problems with prisons in the US is that our society hasn’t really decided what their purpose is. Are they to keep dangerous people away from everyone else? Are they supposed to reform the behavior of people who didn’t know any better or made a mistake? Are prisons taking any effective steps to help prisoners prepare to reintegrate into society without recidivism? When we talk about prison work, it would make sense to try to make that work matter. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/15 "2024-07-29T19:33:49Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Everybody else has their liberty and can apply for jobs, can decide where to live, and so on. > > Prisoners have had their liberty taken away from them. What is your point? They committed a crime, have been sentenced to prison so they don’t have the liberty they used to have. That’s the price they pay for their crime. They have to do what jobs are available to them in prison. I doubt many can cover the actual costs of their incarceration but shouldn’t they contribute to the cost they imposed on society? ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/16 "2024-07-29T19:47:53Z")
actually that has happened in Missouri–an inmate received an insurance settlement and state confiscated it to cover cost of imprisonment ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/17 "2024-07-29T20:15:42Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > The worst, inhumane punishment you can do to a prisoner is to force them to be idle. Would they not be allowed to read, for example? Or is the choice either work at something, or sit and stare into space? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/18 "2024-07-29T20:23:24Z")
In most prisons, other than some Southern “hard labor”\*, the jobs actually are light and get paid- okay, the pay is tiny, but there’s not a lot to spend it on. “Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time” aka “Fuck around and find out”. - i am not sure they still exist? ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/19 "2024-07-29T20:35:04Z")
Yes. but not everyone likes to read. It’s a sign of how bad prison is that sweeping up a factory floor for a dollar an hour is considered a desirable thing. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2024, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966/20 "2024-07-29T20:35:44Z")
California is considering a ban on forced prison labor and requiring that prisoners be paid the minimum wage [California voters to weigh proposal to ban forced prison labor in state constitution | AP News](https://apnews.com/article/california-involuntary-servitude-prison-bb07d374eac14661881b9bb61aa58e1f) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-forcing-prisoners-to-work-be-legal/1004966.md?page=2)