Not to generalize, but there are a lot of inmates who would never spend time reading. Books are also expensive, and have to be shipped directly from Amazon. In the facilities I am familiar with, they will not allow an inmate’s family to bring them a book.
Hmm, prison libraries used to be a thing. I have also heard of the possibility of improving one’s education in prison (for the expected benefit of reducing recidivism). Are those both things of the past, or only available in some states, or in public (vs. private) prisons?
I can only speak to two systems, Massachusetts jails and Georgia’s prisons. In both, there was no library. The only book that was readily available to all inmates was a Bible. Otherwise they had to have books shipped to them from Amazon by a family member.
The person I know in the Georgia prison was a well educated and successful person until his conviction. He taught classes in the prison but got discouraged when the majority of inmates taking the classes had an elementary school reading level and very little interest in being in the classes beyond a desire to be out of their cell for a short period. Those I know in the jails didnt mention classes, likely because the majority of inmates were in the jail for relatively short periods of time.
Here’s a pretty in-depth (27pgs) AP article I found. The journalists spent two years investigating. Here are some snippets:
Prison labor began during slavery…[and] as laws have steadily changed to make it easier for private companies to tap into the swelling captive workforce, it has grown into a multibillion-dollar industry that operates with little oversight.
… They include prisoners fighting wildfires, operating heavy machinery or working on industrial-sized farms and meat-processing plants tied to the supply chains of leading brands.
Laws in some states spell it out clearly: Prisoners aren’t classified as employees…Prisoners across the country can be sentenced to hard labor, forced to work and punished if they refuse, including being sent to solitary confinement. They cannot protest against poor conditions, and it’s usually difficult for them to sue.
Been sitting on this reply awhile and almost deleted it. Again, this is only concerning being forced to work. If a prisoner wanted to work for free for any reason, that’s not what I’m talking about.
Is there a difference between someone being sentenced to hard labor versus it just being a thing that prisons can do to their prisoners? For example, in the OP link - his punishment included forced labor - it came from the Judge and was carried out by the prison. Versus, someone being sentenced to prison for 10 years, and while inside that prison, he must work for/in that prison (and if he happened to be in a different prison, he wouldn’t have to work). Or, It’s discretionary with the prison, and not the actual punishment. Does that make a difference with anyone’s thinking?
I’ve been reading since I posted and this issue is pretty complicated - I can’t determine which other countries allow forced prison labor and which do not.
When I was on the Santa Clara Civil grand jury, we had to inspect every jail in the county. The main mens jail had a library, and the food was okay (it was a mark of pride we’d eat exactly what they ate- a sandwich that i would not mind having in my lunch box, some decent soup, and fruit.).
One of the juvenile centers was - for all intents and purposes- a school. with regular classes, etc.
In CA, all state prisons have libraries-
Library Services - Division of Rehabilitative Programs (DRP).
In CA, that detail is much sought after, and is given only the the best prisoners.
They even made a TV show about it- a very bad TV show.
I would say the main factor is that the highway to prisoner ratio is a lot higher than you probably imagine.
There is a huge amount of prisoners picking up litter. But the amount of litter out there is huger.
If the government paid prisoners minimum wages, there would be calls to charge them for their housing, food, clothing, and medical expenses - all of which they currently receive for free.
Also, they dont let violent prisoners out to do that sort of thing very often.
I disagree. They commited a crime. They dont have to pay rent, buy food, support a family, pay utility bills, car payments gas, etc.
No matter how many times I hear this, it always annoys me. Do you ever approach a doctor or a nurse and tell them about this radical new idea you’ve had - that they should try to make sick or injured people healthier.
To answer your question, rehabilitation is the primary purpose of prisons. This is not a new idea. Prisons were invented for that purpose back in the 18th century.
Perhaps we can stipulate that some of these prisoners are guilty-as-hell evil bastards who deserve whatever they get and then some. However, does it follow that some corporation should be allowed to exploit them as slave labour? Slavery is absolutely bad, it seems like, even though we might otherwise rejoice these people are being punished. The old-fashioned pure punishments like treading the treadmill for six hours every day
seem to leave more room for debate whether they be kosher or not.
It is NOT slave labor.
Nor is it kidnapping or abduction- but they are being held against their will right?
Like I said,
Yep. Well, maybe not all of them, but that is the idea.
Generally, prisoners in their cells are allowed to do things like reading or watching TV or listening to their radio. There are plenty of prisoners who will voluntarily spend all of their time in their cell when they are not working or eating.
Temporarily losing access to personal property like a tv or books or a radio is used as a means of maintaining discipline in prisons.
Prison libraries were certainly a thing during my career. I’ll admit I’m retired now but I’ve never heard of the prisons in my state closing their libraries.
You have to realize that libraries serve a useful security purpose. A prisoner who’s sitting in his cell reading a book is a prisoner who is not causing any problems. So the state is strongly incentivized to run libraries just because they’re effective tools for maintaining prison order. And that’s putting aside all of the benefits the prisoners receive from their libraries.
I’m pretty sure that if there are prisons that don’t have libraries that decision was not made inside the prison system
.
Well, he might be studiously reading Improvised Weapons in American Prisons, or Escape from Alcatraz… 
We have a media review committee.
Pretty sure those would send up a red flag.
Even worse, the number of local governments that are dependent on forced prison labor to function is staggering. It’s actually a big deal in Florida. Reasonable wages is allegedly not a viable solution at the local or state level because paying reasonable prices for roadwork and landscaping would cripple the governments of a significant number of counties.
More importantly, it would be a paradigm shift to go from forcing some 80% of convicts to work unpaid to all convicts recieving the $13 minimum wage while working. Presently, people who refuse to work (for free) are disciplined, and in the worst “bad apple” case beaten until made quadriplegic.
Gainesville/The University of Florida did away with forced unpaid convict labor like five years ago. For reference, that is the most liberal pocket of Florida outside of the big cities. They had the purse and the political will. After this victory and the ex-con franchise amendment, the Democratic party gave up on the issue.
Did I mention that Florida already charges inmates $50/day while incarcerated? Even prisoners released early are still on the hook for the full sentence. Those released early are charged an additional daily fee for the privilege of probation, set by the sheriff’s office. Also prisoners are not allowed to recieve snail mail any more. The state has replaced prison mail with email, at a fee, of course. Once out of prison missed payments result in additional fees and suspension of the drivers license. The state might expect to actually collect <10% of the debt. This is the same state where localities are prohibited from requiring heat and water breaks for outdoor workers.
Something like 5% of Florida’s population have a felony record, well over a million people (another stat: one in eight Black Floridians). Frankly it’s a miracle we passed that amendment to let ex-cons vote. Oh, but only if the ex-con is fully paid up. The state doesn’t have a central way to track who owes what, so election officials can’t tell ex-cons if they have regained the right to vote. But Florida has and will arrest individuals who accidentally and in good faith cast illegal votes.
~Max
My son works in a Floridian Penitentiary. An amazing statistic that he shared with me is that 75% of the prisoners he cares for are innocent of the crime(s) they were convicted of (self-reported data).
I’m guessing well over 75% pleaded guilty.
Not sure, but if you are suggesting the ‘5% of Floridians are felons’ is baseless, it’s a statistic widely advertised a few years ago when we amended our state constitution to re-enfranchise felons. This cite says 10% of voters: CBS, 2020
~Max
I think the point is exactly what you say: Comparisons of the sort “Everyone else has right x, so prison inmates should also have right x” are pointless. Prison inmates have had certain rights taken away from them which others enjoy; this disadvantage is precisely the punishment that society inflicts on them. You can, of course, have different views on whether a given right x should be among those rights taken away from inmates, or whether they should get to keep it; but it’s not a convincing argument to merely refer to the rights that other members of society have.
Is it really the primary purpose of prisons? I ask because Max_S provides us with the following sobering information.
I do want to make it clear that I’m perfectly fine with the idea that prison is a form of punishment. I don’t want to see prisoners brutalized or abused, but you can’t help but have punishment as part of the experience. That said, most of them are getting out at some point and ideally I would like them to be rehabilitated. Does this system in Florida seem like it’s designed to rehabilitate anyone? This system is specifically set up to punish prisoners during and after incarceration. All it does is inflict misery. You might argue that prisoners should pay for their incarceration, but Florida knows it will never get its money back, so that isn’t really the purpose of charging them for their stay.