Should gays be allowed to have sex?

Mtgman, what cite, if any, do you have that the couple was in any way complicit in calling the cops? Is it possible that the neighbor was a homophobe and couldn’t stand the thought of two men having sex in his bulding?

Police have discretion when it comes to archaic or outdated laws. They absolutely had the the discretion not to harrass these people any further. There was no excuse for the cops to do what they did. The prosecutor’s office sure as hell didn’t have to pursue the case. What is the state’s motive for trying to defend this asinine law before the supreme court? The state must feel as though it has political support from its citizenry or it would have dropped this long ago.

No one here - well, few here - would question that a state has the ability, under the Constitution, to prohibit sex with minors, or between minors, and to set an age of consent, even if the age is not the age of legal majority.

If one state criminalizes sex between a 15-year old and a 20-year-old, and another between a 17-year-old and a 20-year-old, which is morally correct? Is the 20-year-old with a 16-year-old girlfriend in the first state a disgusting pervert, but a law-abiding citizen the moment he moves to the second state?

I ask this to point out that states have always been permitted to legislate matters relating to sexual conduct - to prohibit sex outside of marriage, or between children of a certain age.

Between the Bowers decision and now, several states that previously criminalized sodomy no longer do so. If the people of Texas believe that the conduct in this case should be legal, then they should elect legislatures that put that desire into effect. There is no federal Constitutional right for homosexuals or heterosexuals to engage in any particular sex practice.

I do agree that the federal constitution should prohibit any state from making laws that prohibit ONLY homosexual sex. And I agree that the federal constitution should prohibit any state from invidious enforcement of gender-neutral laws only against homosexuals. But I believe any state should have the right to criminalize sodomy, with the remedy being found in that particular state’s legislative houses, not the federal courts.

  • Rick

Bricker, let me get this straight. You actually believe a state has the right to prevent a married couple from having oral sex. What are you, high? Can I have some?

:wink:

The really frightening thing is that this means that it is (legally speaking, of course) safer for me to have sex in Iraq or Rwanda than in Texas.

A side note here, the small city I lived in in VA a long time ago had a law making it illegal for the female to be on top. I always wondered how they would enforce that. And WTF they made that law in the first place.

I have nothing against individual Texans but this is another reason why other folks are going to think twice about moving there.

It’s not the fact they have outdated laws (everyone does) but the fact that the law was enforced and the couple prosecuted.

How much did it cost the state to fine these folks $200.00 anyways? The taxpayers should be royally pissed off at the waste incurred here.

Homosexual conduct law? Time to repeal that that on a national and then global scale.

Robin Williams said it best some years ago… “If you are convicted of sodomy with another man they will throw you into jail… where you will be sodomized.”

It makes no sense at all.

Reminds me of something I read once. Let’s see if I can find it . . . . . . searching . . . . . . . waiting . . . . . .

Bingo. Here it is:

DaLovin’ Dj

Even more fitting for this thread:

I don’t know whether the Texas law in question is ancient, but since it appears in the Texas Penal Code, it has been considered and approved by a relatively modern legislature. Texas began a project of codifying its laws; I believe this began in the '60s or ‘70s. The old laws where put into codes in a process that I believe also considered whether an old law should be passed into a new code. A view of the text of this law on the Texas’ webpage suggests that this particular law was enacted in 1973 and amended as recently as 1993. Whether its antiquated or outdated I can’t tell you, but it doesn’t appear to be forgotten or neglected by the legislature.

Diogenes, it might be worth noting that the decision to prosecute would be made the city or county where the arrest took place - it is not a state wide decision.

FWIW that bit was stolen from Lenny Bruce who used it decades ago.

What I believe is that the federal constitution doesn’t prohibit a state from making such a law.

What I believe the right practice for the state to pursue is an entirely different matter.

But there is no decisional law that support the theory that states cannot criminalize such conduct. Your desire that states not do such a thing - and mine as well, by the way - do not translate into a federal constitutional issue.

No state should make murder legal, either. But the federal constitution doesn’t give Congress the right to force states to keep murder illegal. In our systems, there are issues that are the province of Congress, and issues that are the province of the states. The instant issue falls into the latter category.

  • Rick

Was there properly a federal constitutional issue in striking down state laws against interracial marriage?

Any married heterosexual volunteer Texans willing to get caught in the privacy of their homes engaging in oral sex? I’ll gladly pay the $200 fine for you, but somehow I suspect it won’t even go to court.

Diogenes, I could ask what cite you have that I, as a Texan, was complicit in the selection of these officers, these prosecutors, and all the judges involved. We’re both on shaky ground, but the difference is one is on offense throwing out damnations and the other is on defense throwing out hypothetical situations as shields. If you wish to pursue your vendetta against Texans we can do so, otherwise we can talk facts and not judge the morality of millions of citizens based upon one, pretty much ignored by the media until this point, case.

I’d never heard of this case before, but I’ve done some research on it now through their attorney’s website. They have been represented by Lambda Legal, a group of attorneys “committed to achieving full recognition of the civil rights of lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, the transgendered, and people with HIV or AIDS through impact litigation, education, and public policy work.” The page on thier site with articles detailing the history of the case(from their PoV of course) can be found at http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/cases/record?record=93.

Let’s put some facts into the record before we go further.[ul]
[li]The report was of an armed intruder in the man’s apartment.[/li][li]The men were not ‘out’ at the time. They were outed by the mug shots which were published in the media coverage the trial recieved.[/li][li]The couple was arrested and held a little over 24 hours in jail.[/li][li]The couple pleaded “no contest” to the charges.[/li][li]A county court dismissed their motion to have the charge quashed.[/li][li]At this point Lambda took the case and appealed to the Texas Court of Appeals.[/li][li]The Texas Court of Appeals panel who first heard the case DID strike the law down as unconstitutional. A 2-1 decision.[/li][li]On a motion by the State, the full membership of the Texas Court of Appeals(14th Circuit) overturned the panel’s ruling. The vote was 7-2.[/li][li]The case was appealed to the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, the highest state court for this type of case. The Court of Criminal Appeals did not accept the appeal and never heard the case.[/li][li]The sodomy law has been on the books since 1860 but was revised in 1974 to exclude heterosexual oral and anal sex acts.[/li][/ul]A disturbing case for someone who supports equal protection for homosexuals. Odd that I hadn’t encountered it since the original arrest was in 1998 and I’m pretty omnivorious when it comes to news. The piece that reall bothers me was the motion to quash which was denied. Any legal beagles have any info on what this would mean? Was it a possibly a procedural thing? Could it have been motivated by something other than homophobia?

It doesn’t really bother me that the state made the motion to have the full court of appeals rule instead of just a panel. As a matter of course I appreciate the full court’s input on a constitutional matter. I disagree with their decision though.

The decision of the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals not to hear the case doesn’t suprise me in the least. This court just plain sucks ass and I’m doing my damndest to vote these bastards off at every opportunity.

The real chain of events was some cops arrested the guys, either out of homophobia, a raging sense of following the letter of the law, or annoyance they had been called out on a false alarm. They pleaded “no contest”, which pretty much forced the state to try them. Then, when they were convicted the Lambda group stepped in and this became a fight for gay rights. Two court levels this went through. A criminal court whose findings of fact(forced by the no contest plea) rendered a verdict of guilty. Then the appeals court whose panel ruled it unconstitutional, but the full court overturned the panel.

So let’s look at it. There’s potential homophobia here in a couple of places. The cops, they could have just backed off and written it off as a false alarm, but there were other possibilities as well. The prosecutor had no choice but to try the case because of the “no contest” plea. The original judge’s hands were tied because of the “no contest” as well. Good chance of homophobia on the 14th Court of Appeals when they overturned the panel’s ruling. Inconclusive on the Court of Criminal Appeals, but you can lambast them all you want and I won’t defend them. So, two somewhat legit accusations of homophobia can be leveled, against the cops and against the 14th Court of Appeals. Since the 14th court is local to Houston it doesn’t really extend to all of Texas now does it?

Enjoy,
Steven

This says everything you need to know about Diogenes. Why don’t you try engaging the actual issue instead of spewing your own bigotry?

How did the neighbor KNOW that they were having sex in order to call the police? Maybe it started out as a niose compaint.

The Supreme Court disagrees with you on sex outside marriage. Eisenstadt v. Baird (1972) used substantive due process to strike down a ban on contraceptive distribution to unmarried couples (Griswold v. Connecticut did teh same thing in 1965 for married couples). The Court stated that “If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child.” The reach of that holding may be legitimately debated (it doesn’t necessarily apply to “sodomy,” however defined), but the core principle that nonmarried people of opposite sex can screw each other’s brains out is pretty well impregnable.

Doesn’t this, then, violate Amendment XIV?

*Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.*

Making a certain sexual act legal between a man and a woman but illegal between a man and another man is not, in my eyes, equal protection.

And that is the arguement that will be made before the SCOTUS.