# Should Gaza be relocated? Where? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212 "2013-02-03T13:15:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/81 "2013-02-04T06:03:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that, Jabotinsky himself would be grossly offended by your suggestion that he didn’t view the Arabs as inferiors who needed to be cleansed from his beloved Eretz Israel. You’re wrong. In fact, you’re twice wrong. He didn’t view the Arabs as inferiors, and he didn’t say they had to be “cleansed” from Israel. In fact, he specifically denies both in the Iron Wall speech (Although he does say the Palestinian Arabs are culturally primitive, but that’s in their mode of living, not a natural trait). > [@](#): > > My political relationship is characterized by two principles. First: the expulsion of the Arabs from Palestine is absolutely impossible in any form. There will always be two nations in Palestine – which is good enough for me, provided the Jews become the majority. Second: I am proud to have been a member of that group which formulated the Helsingfors Program. We formulated it, not only for Jews, but for all peoples, and its basis is the equality of all nations. I am prepared to swear, for us and our descendants, that we will never destroy this equality and we will never attempt to expel or oppress the Arabs. Our credo, as the reader can see, is completely peaceful. But it is absolutely another matter if it will be possible to achieve our peaceful aims through peaceful means. This depends, not on our relationship with the Arabs, but exclusively on the Arabs’ relationship to Zionism. What he believed, though, was that there had to be a Jewish state in Palestine, and the Arabs would be fools to sit back and let it happen, because history shows that every group resists colonization from outside. So that’s why the Jews of Palestine, he argued, needed some sort of defense force; why they couldn’t just rely on Arab good intentions. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/82 "2013-02-04T06:04:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > When did I say they couldn’t? Of course they could. You have yet to answer my question. > [@](#): > > I’m confused. When you first brought up the idea of a “one state solution” I asked if you favored “the Lebanese model”(I.E. a bi-national state) or “the American model” you said you’d go with neither, but instead said you’d use “the Israeli model” and repeatedly insisted on that when questioned. > > As you must know, under the Israeli model, the government and the State would be explicitly Jewish, and political parties which promote “racism” or refuse to recognize Israel as “the sovereign state of the Jewish people” are banned as are groups or MKs with links to “terrorism”. > > Obviously this would mean every meaningful Palestinian political group in both the West Bank and Gaza would not be eligible to be elected to the Israeli Knesset. > > Didn’t you realize what you were proposing when you stated that your proposed “one state solution” would follow “the Israeli model”? > > That’s why I was stunned when you explicitly rejected both the Lebanese and American models for the Israeli model which no self-respecting Palestinians would ever support. So, didn’t you realize when you called for “the Israeli model” that this would mean Palestinians would have to live in a state was explicitly “the sovereign state of the Jewish people”. Moreover, since you’re now insisting the both Hamas and Hezbollah would be eligible for election to the Knesset under your proposed “Israeli model” please explain how that would happen in a country which required all political parties to recognize Israel as the sovereign state of the Jewish people and to eschew terrorism? Please explain your comments which would strike most people familiar with the situation as being quite bizarre. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/83 "2013-02-04T06:08:00Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > You’re wrong. In fact, you’re twice wrong. No, I’m not. > [@](#): > > He didn’t view the Arabs as inferiors, Yes he did. Admittedly, so did most of the contemporary Zionists. That was a time when most white people were unabashed colonialists and used the term “native” as a pejorative. > [@](#): > > and he didn’t say they had to be “cleansed” from Israel. Yes, he did. Like most of the Irgun and Lehi bigots he supported ethnic cleansing. It’s moronic to argue otherwise. > [@](#): > > (Although he does say the Palestinian Arabs are culturally primitive, but that’s in their mode of living, not a natural trait). That of course is racist bullshit. You might as well argue that George Wallace wasn’t a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/84 "2013-02-04T06:31:01Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > We claim an historical connection to the region because we have an historical connection to the region. I think you misunderstood **BrainGlutton** ’s point. What he said was that Jews don’t have a _ **superior** _ hereditary historical claim to the region. That is, Jews do have a historical connection to the region, but so do the non-Jews who dominated its population and culture for millennia after the diaspora. Jewish cultural and historical identification with the land doesn’t automatically trump similar cultural and historical identification by Palestinian non-Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/85 "2013-02-04T06:33:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, he did. Like most of the Irgun and Lehi bigots he supported ethnic cleansing. > > It’s moronic to argue otherwise. Where? Show me what he said and where he said it. In fact, in his posthumously published 1940 book “The War and the Jew”, he specifically discusses the role of Arabs in a Jewish Palestinian state > [@](#): > > 1. CIVIC EQUALITY > > 2. Provided nothing be done to hinder any foreign Jew from repatriating to Palestine, and, by doing so, automatically becoming a Palestinian citizen, the principle of equal rights for all citizens of any race, creed, language or class shall be enacted without limitation throughout all sectors of the country’s public life. > > 3. In every Cabinet where the Prime Minister is a Jew, the vice-premiership shall be offered to an Arab, and vice-versa. > > 4. Proportional sharing by Jews and Arabs both in the charges and in the benefits of the State shall be the rule with regard to Parliamentary elections, civil and military service, and budgetary grants. > > 5. The same rule shall apply to mixed municipalities or county councils. > > 6. LANGUAGES > > i. The Hebrew and the Arabic languages shall enjoy equal rights and equal legal validity. > > 1. No State law, proclamation or ordinance; no coin, banknote or stamp of the State; no publication or inscription produced at the State’s expense shall be valid > unless executed identically in both Hebrew and Arabic. > > 2. Both Hebrew and Arabic shall be used with equal legal effect in Parliament, in the Courts, in the schools and in general before any office or organ of the State, > as well as in any school of whatever degree. > > 3. All offices of the State shall answer any applicant, orally and in writing, in the language of his application, whether Hebrew or Arabic. > > 4. CULTURAL AUTONOMY > > 5. The Jewish and the Arab ethno-communities shall be recognized as autonomous public bodies of equal status before the law. > > Should the Christian Arabs, or any other group of citizens reasonably justified in claiming autonomy, also demand a measure of independent recognition, Parliament shall be entitled to grant the request. > > 1. The following matters shall be delegated by the State to each ethno-community with regard to its members: > > (a) religion and personal status; > > (fa) education in all its branches and grades, especially in the compulsory elementary stages; > > (c) public relief, including all forms of social assistance; > > (d) settlement of ordinary law cases arising out of > the above-mentioned matters. > > 1. Each ethno-community shall elect its National Diet with the right to issue ordinances and levy taxes within the limits of its autonomy, and to appoint a > national executive responsible before the Diet. > > 2. A permanent Minister of Cabinet rank, independent of all parties, shall represent each ethno-community in the country’s government. > > 3. THE HOLY PLACES > > 4. The relevant areas within the Old City of Jerusalem, to be delimited under the authority of the League of Nations, shall enjoy the same measure of extraterritoriality as that universally recognized in the case of embassies. > > 5. Each of these areas shall constitute a municipality under a council appointed by agreement between the ecclesiastic authorities concerned. > > 6. A similar regime shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to other holy sites within the country. > > 7. Except in war, pilgrim permits of sufficient duration shall be freely granted to nationals of any State: subject only to genuine requirements of hygiene, traffic > and public safety, and provided any paupers among the pilgrims shall be maintained, and in due course repatriated, at the expense of the respective ecclesiastic authority. > > 8. A delegate of the League of Nations, with the status of Ambassador, shall be appointed to represent the interests concerned. > > 9. LAND > > 10. A Palestine Land Court shall be formed including, among other members, judges and agricultural experts belonging to both ethno-communities. > > 11. All the waste lands, as well as all lands inadequately cultivated in the opinion of the Court, shall be requisitioned (under fair compensation in the case of > the latter) to form the State’s Land Reserve. > > 12. After improvement at the expense of the State, > reclaimed areas of the Land Reserve shall be divided > into allotments to be granted, at fair prices and easy > terms of credit, to individual applicants and groups. > > 13. Allotments shall be distributed under the Land Court’s supervision to Jewish and Arab applicants and groups indiscriminately. > > 14. Each applicant shall have to satisfy the Land Court: > > (a) that he owns no other land; > > (b) that he possesses a reasonable minimum of capital or equipment for working that land, no matter whether his own or supplied by supporters; > > (c) that he will work the land personally. > [@](#): > > That of course is racist bullshit. You might as well argue that George Wallace wasn’t a bigot. It’s not racist. It’s culturally imperialist, if you want to call it that. It’s probably bigoted. But it’s not racism. He didn’t think Arabs were racially inferior or that there were natural differences in ability between Arab and non-Arab, or if he did think that, he didn’t say it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/86 "2013-02-04T06:45:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s not racist. It’s culturally imperialist, if you want to call it that. **It’s probably bigoted. But it’s not racism.**. Ah, the “he wasn’t a racist, he was a bigot” defense. I’m reminded of the assholes who squeal about Jews controlling the US government shitting their pants in anger when they’re accused of anti-Semitism claiming they’re not anti-Semites because they don’t view Jews as racial inferiors. Granted, I assume you agree with them and shit yourself in anger when people accuse them of being anti-Semites since they don’t believe that their are “natural” differences between Jews and non-Jews. To those of us living in the real world there is no significant difference between those who are “racists” and those who are “bigots.” That being said, thank you for conceding that Jabotinsky was a bigot and his philosophy was bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/87 "2013-02-04T08:00:27Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Or Jews to Islam. That’d work, too! Better they should all be pagan so they can all live together like good Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/88 "2013-02-04T08:25:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Better they should all be pagan so they can all live together like good Christians. Anyway, you have yet to explain how a “one state solution” based on “the Israeli model” where the only change for Israel would be allowing Palestinians in the Occupied territories to vote would result in allowing Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups who advocated turning Jews in kosher hamburger, would be able to put up candidates for the Knesset. Please do so. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/89 "2013-02-04T11:43:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > To those of us living in the real world there is no significant difference between those who are “racists” and those who are “bigots.” > > That being said, thank you for conceding that Jabotinsky was a bigot and his philosophy was bigotry. So, does that mean you can’t answer my questions about when he called for the expulsion of Arabs, then? And racism is a kind of bigotry, but not all bigotry is racism, as I’m sure you know. I’ll concede the man was probably personally bigoted (as was most of the population of early 20th century Europe and the US), but what’s bigoted about his philosophy? ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/90 "2013-02-05T01:08:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > Pardon me for asking. Are you \*this \*Ibn Warraq: _Ibn Warraq is the pen name of an author most famous for his criticism of Islam. He is the founder of the Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society (ISIS) and a senior research fellow at the Center for Inquiry,[1][2] focusing on Quranic criticism_ or if not, do you identify with him in any significant way ? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/91 "2013-02-05T02:11:44Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > Pardon me for asking. Are you \*this \*Ibn Warraq: > _Ibn Warraq is the pen name of an author most famous for his criticism of Islam. He is the founder of the Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society (ISIS) and a senior research fellow at the Center for Inquiry,[1][2] focusing on Quranic criticism_ > > or if not, do you identify with him in any significant way ? > > Thanks. No, I’m not him. I agree with some of the things he says and very much enjoyed his first book, Why I Am Not a Muslim, but since then I think he paints religion in general, and Islam in particular, with too broad a brush, though he’s certainly no Bat Yeor or Robert Spencer. I’d put him more in a similar category as Irshad Manji, with obvious differences, though he’d not nearly as much of a ham.\* \*. Isn’t meant as an insult and I think she’d agree. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/92 "2013-02-05T02:50:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Anyway, you have yet to explain how a “one state solution” based on “the Israeli model” where the only change for Israel would be allowing Palestinians in the Occupied territories to vote would result in allowing Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups who advocated turning Jews in kosher hamburger, would be able to put up candidates for the Knesset. > > Please do so. > > Thanks. Should Palestinians be prevented from having some sort of representation that is recognised by the rest of the world, whether in a one or two-state situation, until they end their support for terrorist groups? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/93 "2013-02-05T03:00:48Z")
Not to get your story twisted with reality, Dick, but “the rest of the world” does not in fact recognize the right for political parties to advocate “turning Jews into kosher hamburger.” Oops, eh? But please, in light of your previous non-partisan claims about how (only sufficiently modern) occupations and/or annexations are _not_ compatible with democracy, please explain how explicitly genocidal political planks _are_. This should be fun. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/94 "2013-02-05T03:04:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Not to get your story twisted with reality, Dick, but “the rest of the world” does not in fact recognize the right for political parties to advocate “turning Jews into kosher hamburger.” > Oops, eh? But please, in light of your previous non-partisan claims about how (only sufficiently modern) occupations and/or annexations are _not_ compatible with democracy, please explain how explicitly genocidal political planks _are_. > > This should be fun. Answer the question and I’ll explain. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/95 "2013-02-05T03:06:22Z")
So, of course, you can’t explain how your highly non-partisan and objective analysis squares (only sufficiently recent) occupations and annexations with the negation of democracy, but explicitly genocidal political planks are hunky dory. Luckily, your high non-partisan and objective metrics will obviously win through, rational as they are. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/96 "2013-02-05T03:12:05Z")
You can answer the question any time now. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/97 "2013-02-05T03:16:45Z")
Okay, if you insist: “Well Finn, explicitly genocidal planks\* don’t\* negate democracy but (only sufficiently recent) occupations and annexations _do_, because I’m rationalizing post hoc in order to mangle logic into a rough fit for my partisan argument.” But I’d rather hear you explain your attempts at coherence and cogency yourself, Dick. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/98 "2013-02-05T03:19:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Okay, if you insist: “Well Finn, explicitly genocidal planks\* don’t\* negate democracy but (only sufficiently recent) occupations and annexations _do_, because I’m rationalizing post hoc in order to mangle logic into a rough fit for my partisan argument.” > > But I’d rather hear you explain your attempts at coherence and cogency yourself, Dick. Here’s the question again baby : Should Palestinians be prevented from having some sort of representation that is recognised by the rest of the world, whether in a one or two-state situation, until they end their support for terrorist groups? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/99 "2013-02-05T03:27:27Z")
Funny, you can’t explain the hole in your logic until someone answers yet another of your off-topic, loaded questions. That’s because your argument is so damn strong, as (only sufficiently recent) occupations and annexations negate democracy, but democracy is vibrant when a group explicitly states as a political plank that if they were part of a nation with another ethnic group they would exterminate them to the last man, woman, and child. Your argument is so very rational, as obviously denying sovereignty to a foreign entity under occupation makes a state non-democratic but wanting to wipe out an entire ethnic group isn’t non-democratic since, hey, dead people can still vote and stuff and exercise self determination. Casket or cremation, right? Why, your argument isn’t jejune Israel bashing propped up with such sloppy rationalizations that _hey look over there!_ ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212/100 "2013-02-05T03:28:40Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Here’s the question again baby : > > Should Palestinians be prevented from having some sort of representation that is recognised by the rest of the world, whether in a one or two-state situation, until they end their support for terrorist groups? Yes. Political parties that support the violent overthrow of their nation may be legally prevented from functioning. Advocating the violent overthrow of the government can even be a criminal offense in itself. If any registered U.S. political party openly advocated assassination, revolution, or coup d’etat, their resources could be seized by the FBI, and their representatives in Congress could be ejected by votes of the specific body (House or Senate.) Democracy depends, vitally, on the concept of the “loyal opposition.” But it has to remain, to that degree at least, loyal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gaza-be-relocated-where/649212.md?page=6)