# Should Germany be allowed to participate in European D-Day ceremonies? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 6, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981 "2004-06-06T17:58:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/1 "2004-06-06T17:58:04Z")
[Apparently this is the first year they’ve been allowed to.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&e=4&u=/chitribts/20040606/ts_chicagotrib/germanstostandwithalliesfor1sttimeatddayrites) I’d be very curious as to who nixed the idea ten years ago, and who okayed it this time. I believe this is a question best answered by Allied veterans, though I rather doubt they’ve been asked to vote on it. Personally I think it’s a bad idea – the war wasn’t a firggin’ volleyball game where both sides shake hands after the win. Plus it suggests (to me) that it helps the Germans externalize the evil they perpetrated. Now we can all blame the “nazis”, including the Germans, and they can put aside how popular Hitler and his policies were until the Brits and American starting laying down the carpet bombing. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/2 "2004-06-06T18:27:45Z")
My opinion (for what it’s worth) is that Germany needs to be there. It’s an important statement of how things have changed in the past decades, a way for even those on the wrong side to admit that D-Day was an important and _good_ event in history. I personally never much liked the concept of collective guilt anyway, so that tints my opinion. We should also never forget that the war didn’t just liberate France from Germany, but also at least part of Germany from a tyrannical dictator. Just some brief ramblings. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/3 "2004-06-06T18:38:29Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > Plus it suggests (to me) that it helps the Germans externalize the evil they perpetrated. Yes, certainly this danger exists, but keep in mind that most Germans today (including Chancellor Schröder and the Eurocorps soldiers in the ceremony) were indeed not part of the system. This time we are not talking about postwar-“secretly we were all resistance”-crap, but people generations after the war. My grandfather was 14 at the end of WW2. Perhaps I carry a genetic seed of evil, but I am not quite convinced. I’d say I can honestly distance myself from the nazis the same way any of you can. From my perspective my country was liberated after d-day and what lead to WW2 should be a warning to all of us. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/4 "2004-06-06T18:53:09Z")
The German government that exists now is not the same one what existed during WW2, most of the people alive in Germany today weren’t part of the system. There is deep regret among many Germans(or so I’ve heard) for the entire Nazi Period. I don’t really see the problem. ---
**Author:** ![htns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@htns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/htns)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/5 "2004-06-06T20:59:23Z")
Hey, the war’s over, let’s let bygones be bygones already. If Germany were still Nazi, then there’d be a problem, but it ain’t. I envision the current Presidents of the Allied nations walking up the beach (starting at the waterline then walking inland). The President of Germany approaches the leaders from the opposite direction (from the shore to the waterline, the two parties meeting halfway), and shakes hands with them, offering words of reconciliation. That’s how I would do it, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/6 "2004-06-07T07:53:38Z")
What **Priam** said. It’s a sign of how far we’ve come. Here is a quote from [Chancellor Schroeder’s speech](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040606/wl_nm/france_dday_schroeder_dc_1) at the D-Day ceremonies: > [@](#): > > “France’s memories of June 6, 1944 are different from Germany’s yet they still flow into the same joint conviction: We want peace,” he said. "We Germans know we unleashed a heinous war. We’re aware of our responsibility and take it seriously. > > “Thousands of Allied soldiers died in a single, gruesome day and paid the ultimate price for freedom,” he said in a speech at D-Day ceremonies in the northwestern town of Caen. > > “German soldiers died because they were sent on a murderous campaign to crush Europe. But in death all soldiers were united regardless of the uniform they wore – in the grieving of their parents and wives, brothers and sisters. Their pain unites us all.” ---
**Author:** ![pyrrthon1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@pyrrthon1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pyrrthon1)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/7 "2004-06-07T10:16:25Z")
It’s assumed that this year’s D-Day celebration will be the last, since almost all veterans will be dead 10 years from now. I guess the organizers thought, “Why not bury the hatchet for this final get together.” ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/8 "2004-06-07T22:17:47Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > From my perspective my country was liberated after d-day and what lead to WW2 should be a warning to all of us. **Well said.** ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/9 "2004-06-07T22:35:37Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > I’d be very curious as to who nixed the idea ten years ago, and who okayed it this time. It’s actually incredibly simple - Helmut Kohl, then _Bundeskanzler_, thought it would be imprudent at the time to join the 50th D-Day Memorial Service, even though Mitterand invited him, and insisted quite strongly. Another decade gone, another 10 years between the war and the present day - Chirac asks Schröder, and Schröder says yes. A personal decision, likely influenced by the fact that Kohl very much lived through WWII as a young boy, whereas Schröder was merely born in it. But **kellner** said all there needs to be said. Yes, the Germans are more than welcome to join in the WWII commemorations, any commemorations. _Alle Menschen werden Brüder_, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/10 "2004-06-07T22:40:18Z")
**flodnak** , thanks for posting that excertp; I feel that summs it up perfectly and I’m glad Schroeder and his folks understand what it is to get along with the world at large (ahem-Bush-ahem). That said, one of the things said in the first post of the thread bears a good second glance: > [@](#): > > Germans externalize the evil they perpetrated. This is key. _Perpetrated_, not perpetuated. To not forgive a nation for the sins of three or four generations ago when they have actually turned around is shortsighted and, quite honestly, (IMHO) a disgrace to those who look to a peaceful future and unnecesarily unforgiving for a species that considers itself on top of the evolutionary scale. Not to sound too “Starfleet,” but the sins of the past when not perpetuated by those in the present can and should be forgiven. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/11 "2004-06-08T01:38:56Z")
You know, I’ve seen footage of old US WW II vets exchanging hugs and presents with old Japanese WW II vets, and it seems to me that soldiers of _any_ nation recognize a brother in arms, no matter what flag each one may have carried, after the conflict is over. Even _during_ combat there may be admiration and appreciation of one another. This far along, it makes sense to have the Germans there. Supposedly, some of the post-war plans for Germany included reducing the nation to little more than an agricultural nation. What killed those plans was the perceived threat of the Soviet Union, and the desire to have another strong ally on the contienent to hold back Soviet expansionism. For Germans growing up in West Germany, the liberation of Europe by the Allies, saved them from decades of Soviet oppression, something that their relatives in East Germany could only dream about while the wall still stood. Germany owes a tremendous debt to the men of the Allied armies who fought and died on D-Day. Their actions not only liberated them from the oppression of Nazism, but the abuses of the Soviet system as well, and the Allies helped to rebuild Germany after the war, instead of subjecting it to the same kind of reparations it had experienced after the First World War. Sometimes, it seems, humans do learn from their mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/12 "2004-06-08T02:36:40Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > You know, I’ve seen footage of old US WW II vets exchanging hugs and presents with old Japanese WW II vets, and it seems to me that soldiers of _any_ nation recognize a brother in arms, no matter what flag each one may have carried, after the conflict is over. Even _during_ combat there may be admiration and appreciation of one another. This far along, it makes sense to have the Germans there. This actually reminds me of the final episode of the **Band of Brothers** miniseries (the episode called “Points”). It showed the end of the war, the surrender of the Germans and the reestablishment of order in Europe. One of the things I found most interesting, and even touching, was the civility that each army’s soldiers showed each other. One example was a scene where a German couple were driving through the roadblock that was guarded by Americans. A wounded German soldier (on crutches) came up to the post and the American guards immediately opened up the back door, tossed out the couple’s luggage and told them to drive the soldier where he needed to go. For them, I think it was an understanding that for many of the men, fighting in the war was just a responsibility they owed their nation and not a war of ideals. It wasn’t necessarily personal for many of them and they were open to forgiveness once the arms were laid down. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/13 "2004-06-08T03:26:42Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > It’s actually incredibly simple - Helmut Kohl, then _Bundeskanzler_, thought it would be imprudent at the time to join the 50th D-Day Memorial Service, even though Mitterand invited him, and insisted quite strongly. … The story I linked to in the OP says practically the opposite, that Kohl hinted around that he wanted to participate, but was “politely refused.” No word about who refused. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/14 "2004-06-08T08:06:49Z")
Yeah, I know. Yet, I saw the German president Köhler on TV the other day, and he told the story like I relayed it above. I have no reason to doubt him, and his explanation made sense. I don’t know why your link seems to differ, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/15 "2004-06-08T12:18:14Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > [Apparently this is the first year they’ve been allowed to.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&e=4&u=/chitribts/20040606/ts_chicagotrib/germanstostandwithalliesfor1sttimeatddayrites) I’d be very curious as to who nixed the idea ten years ago, and who okayed it this time. > > I believe this is a question best answered by Allied veterans, though I rather doubt they’ve been asked to vote on it. Personally I think it’s a bad idea – the war wasn’t a firggin’ volleyball game where both sides shake hands after the win. Plus it suggests (to me) that it helps the Germans externalize the evil they perpetrated. Now we can all blame the “nazis”, including the Germans, and they can put aside how popular Hitler and his policies were until the Brits and American starting laying down the carpet bombing. We absolutely must come together after something that horrendous. The nations of the world have always forgave and forgot. Look at our relationships with Japan, England, Italy and (for the most part) France. It’s ridiculous to hold a grudge against the whole nation because of the politics of a few. Most Germans didn’t agree with the Nazi plan. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/16 "2004-06-08T13:09:13Z")
This ceremony honors what these soldiers achieved: ending a terrible war. I can’t think of a much better way to show the full meaning of that achievement than by having soldiers from both sides taking part in the ceremony as friends. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/17 "2004-06-08T13:22:35Z")
Yes, ofcourse Germany should participate in the D-Day ceremonies. They’ve been the black sheep long enough. Today’s Germans are good and kind people. With - I should mention - the least anti-semitism in Europe. We can learn something from them. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/18 "2004-06-08T18:46:14Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Yes, of course Germany should participate in the D-Day ceremonies. And after all, they were forced to participate in the first one. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/19 "2004-06-08T21:58:53Z")
hehehehe. That was not at all what I meant. But that was funny, **gatopescado** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981/20 "2004-06-09T06:09:47Z")
**kalhoun** - I have to disagree with your asessment that “… against the whole nation because of the politics of a few. Most Germans didn’t agree with the Nazi plan.” If you read the accompanying article, it said that German soldiers suffered their heaviest losses during that period - 3-500,000 a month, and that for the last year of the war, they suffered more casualties than in the previous 5 years combined. By the end of the war they were sending boys, the Hitler Youth, to die. I think that to sugarcoat it with a “oh, they didn’t really mean it” is revisionist history and must be guarded against. It’s like saying Terry Nichols just fell in with the wrong crowd. I do believe that the Germans are a fine people with a wonderful human rights record since the end of the war. I think they’re determined that nothing like that will happen again. I’m just afraid that when the true horrors of the situation are downplayed, it opens up to thoughts of “well, it wasn’t _really_ so bad”, and vigilence is lessened. As to the OP, yes, I believe they should be allowed to participate in the D-Day remembrances. StG [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-germany-be-allowed-to-participate-in-european-d-day-ceremonies/248981.md?page=2)