# Should Girls in Afghanistan Schools be more newsworthy as an ISAF success story? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2013, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070 "2013-12-24T08:42:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/181 "2013-12-31T13:34:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Who called it a “masterpiece”? Not me. > > Tell you what. If they hold a joint Christmas celebration in public, in the streets of Kandahar next year, I’ll be impressed. What do you think the odds are of that happening? > It’s not mind control, it’s propaganda. The targets are people who are easily fooled by it. An open public joint military Christmas celebration would be dangerous and foolish in a war zone where an enemy continues to operate and would target to kill and maim all participants. Calling to put US and friendly troops in danger so you can be impressed is something I would never seek. And what people are easily fooled into believing what Pentagon propaganda by reading about a safe celebration such as the one our troops appeared to have enjoyed. Or is it the enjoyment what is fake. Will you ever explain yourself on this subplot to this topic? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/182 "2013-12-31T14:36:38Z")
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] Do you oppose that Christmas gathering because you don’t want our troops to be there? -Ntfldbw [/quote] Right. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You mildly oppose that Christmas gathering? Would you prefer they didn’t do it at all? Not give presents to the Afghans? How mild is mildly? I don’t see how anyone could oppose that gathering of two cultures even if they oppose the war. I’d prefer they _couldn’t_ do it, by dint of not being there. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Are you the final authority on ‘nothing’ can be done to transform Afghanistan? Plenty can be done…but not imposed from outside by foreign invaders. Change must come from the Afghanis. Can you give me an example of when a modern, stable nation with Western values was formed by an invading power? It happened in Japan, but Japan was in a very, very different place as a society. It’s very hierarchical, so top-down change was effective. Further, Japan had begun Westernizing itself after the Meiji Restoration, whereas what little Westernization that’s occured in Afghanistan was always associated with foreign invaders, namely the British and Soviets. Japan’s extremist nationalist period lasted only a few decades, whereas Afghanistan has been ruled by chiefs and warlords for centuries. Japan was able to pull off their [post-war economic miracle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_post-war_economic_miracle) using Western methods, proving the benefits of Western society. No such miracle can or will happen in Afghanistan, and the poor and desperate are always more susceptible to extremist dogma than the comfortable and prosperous. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And that is odd because plenty has been done already. The question now is whether the will can be mustered to finish it. We can’t transform their society. We can influence it, by removing leaders we don’t care for, or dictating conditions for aid, but we can’t change whose these people are and what they value and believe. You are asking the wrong question, sir. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The main argument against finishing it would be if our troops had to do the fighting for them. Those Afghans in that Christmas gathering are part of the Afghan people who are fighting and only want a continuation of our partnership to back them up. IF you only mildly oppose that perhaps you can be convinced to continue to back them up a while longer… as long as they continue to fight for themselves and do what they need to do to turn things around. No, that’s just one argument. One could also question the value of propping up an incredibly corrupt government that rigs elections. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It is not toppling a regime if they go hide, we leave, and they come back or sonething worse. So no it was not accomplished in 2002 and I would argue that the serious business of setting up a permanent Taliban replacement government did not begin until 2009. Iraq was a major distraction to getting Afghanistan right. Sure it is. The Taliban was removed from what central power they had in 2002. One could argue that steps should be taken to prevent them from trying again, but the regime was indeed toppled. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What attitude in what community are the service members aiming to influence by sharing the Christmas celebration with Afghan miliary partners and friends in a war zone? “The Afghans are our friends, and respect our culture! Things are going great!” [QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] What is the other side they are failing to present? Do atheists get a party? Are those Afghans at the party really those who kill Christians that Mace discovered? [/quote] How about an Afghan perspective, for a start? [QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] What is the one side of an argument about a Christnas get together between Americans and Afghans at a military outpost in a war zone. Should somebody kill somebody to even it out? [/QUOTE] The one side is the one that was presented through the quotes in the article. If this article _doesn’t_ create a favorable view of U.S.-Afghan partnership, why did you link to it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/183 "2013-12-31T15:15:16Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I am not pretending anything. Lets not fail to acknowledge that Afghanistan is not unuque in what John Mace has singled out Afghanistan to complain about: I didn’t “single out” Afghanistan-- you did. This thread is your thread and it’s about Afghanistan. Ask Americans how they feel about having our troops put their lives at risk in a country where it’s illegal for the residents to convert to Christianity. > [@](#): > > An open public joint military Christmas celebration would be dangerous and foolish in a war zone where an enemy continues to operate and would target to kill and maim all > participants. So, you don’t think the war is going well then. It’s a strange assessment that after 12 years when we’re pulling our troops out (mostly) that they fe remaining can’t have a simple, public celebration with the people whom we are there protect. It’s no wonder Americans don’t think the was is going well. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/184 "2013-12-31T16:01:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The one side is the one that was presented through the quotes in the article. If this article _doesn’t_ create a favorable view of U.S.-Afghan partnership, why did you link to it? I posted an event that represents a genuine favorable view of the Afghan US military partnership on the battlefield. Your suggestion that a favorable enactment is being created as if US Service members are acting out some kind of publicity stunt that does not exist in order to fool certain people into believing that a genuine partnership exists as part of some Government propaganda effort, is quite offensive. The celebration is not a creation, it is a representation of something that really and truly exists. No one at the gathering is faking it unless you have something that backs your propaganda theory up. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/185 "2013-12-31T16:06:04Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I posted an event that represents a genuine favorable view of the Afghan US military partnership on the battlefield. Your suggestion that a favorable enactment is being created as if US Service members are acting out some kind of publicity stunt that does not exist in order to fool certain people into believing that a genuine partnership exists as part of some Government propaganda effort, is quite offensive. The celebration is not a creation, it is a representation of something that really and truly exists. > > No one at the gathering is faking it unless you have something that backs your propaganda theory up. You have mistaken my point. I said that the _coverage_ of the event, in the article you linked to, meets the criteria of one common definition of propaganda. Propaganda isn’t necessarily incorrect, let alone fabricated, though people (wrongly) use it that way. It just means that the material is intended to change minds, and that it presents only one side of an issue. The article you cited neatly qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/186 "2013-12-31T16:29:54Z")
Can a war be going well for the US because of our reduced footprint and the locals taking the lead in the majority of fighting but the war itself is not yet over? In a war when the enemy is in steady diminished capacity to harm our troops, rational people can consider that ‘going well’ although the war is not completely over. It’s going well based upon conditions on the ground demonstrate that assessment and because our troops no longer need to be sitting targets on the front lines. For you to expect going well to be possible only if our troops can roam around in public and have a Christmas Party is quite silly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/187 "2013-12-31T16:42:20Z")
Since the OP hasn’t been able to tell us about the Loya Jirga, I did some research myself. There aren’t that many articles about it on the internet, and the few there are don’t really offer clear picture. The best one I could find was [this Time article:](http://world.time.com/2013/11/20/afghanistans-big-tent-politics-time-explains-the-loya-jirga/) > [@](#): > > **Afghanistan’s Big-Tent Politics: TIME Explains the Loya Jirga** > > Thousands of tribal elders from across Afghanistan will gather in Kabul on Thursday for a loya jirga, which is Pashto for grand council. > > \ > > The loya jirga is an institution deeply embedded in Afghan culture and has played a part in some of the country’s most crucial deliberations of the past century. > > \ > > In reality, as is the case this year, the loya jirga is most often convened when a leader has to make an unpopular decision for which he doesn’t want to take sole responsibility… > Essentially, it’s a way for the leader to say he’s consulted with his people, but with one crucial twist: “Who controls the invite list? It’s the leader,” > > \ > > The thorniest issue facing the jirga this week is the matter of immunity for foreign troops. The U.S. has a Status of Forces Agreement with every country in which its troops are stationed, guaranteeing that American forces won’t be punished under local laws, but tried under the U.S. judicial system. The issue of immunity is deeply contentious among Afghans; many consider the statute as giving a foreign military carte blanche to use violence in their country. They have been particularly furious about night raids and incidents involving the mishandling of copies of the Koran. The 2012 massacre where U.S. Staff Sergeant Robert Bales killed 16 civilians in Kandahar province, only to be brought back to the U.S. to face trial for murder, stirred deep distrust among the Afghan populace, angry that Bales couldn’t face Afghan justice. > > \ > > That prospect scares Afghanistan’s leaders, who fear a return of civil war if foreign troops leave too soon. As unpopular as immunity is, Karzai knows the potential consequences if it’s not granted. “Most Afghans want the United States and foreign troops to be gone, but not too quickly,” Lamb says. “By giving this decision to the Afghan people — through, frankly, handpicked tribal leaders — he’s basically creating collective responsibility for this decision… Emphasis added. IOW, this body, which the OP claims represents ALL OF AFGHANISTAN, is an unelected body, whose delegates are controlled by Kharzi in order to give himself cover to make an unpopular decision-- the always thorny issue of immunity for US troops. There’s [a link in that article to another article](http://swampland.time.com/2013/10/29/the-shrinking-oil-spot-strategy/) about the shrinking areas of security in Afghanistan as the US and other international forces pull out. > [@](#): > > When push came to shove for the U.S.-led military efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq, some experts urged the adoption of a so-called “oil-spot strategy” as a way of doing more with less. Instead of placating the entire nation all at once, it called for the establishment of small, secure areas that would gradually grow over time as counter-insurgency successes in the initial zones oozed outward and ultimately connected. > > It made sense, at least at first glance. But now, a key monitor of U.S. success in Afghanistan is warning that the opposite is, in fact, happening: more and more of Afghanistan is becoming insecure as the U.S. and its allies leave the country. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/188 "2013-12-31T16:57:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Since the OP hasn’t been able to tell us about the Loya Jirga, I did some research myself. There aren’t that many articles about it on the internet, and the few there are don’t really offer clear picture. The best one I could find was [this Time article:](http://world.time.com/2013/11/20/afghanistans-big-tent-politics-time-explains-the-loya-jirga/) > Emphasis added. Yeah, Karzai’s good at hand-picking to ensure success. See the article I linked to in post #146 about the “independent” election commission disqualifying candidates for president. > [@John Mace](#): > > IOW, this body, which the OP claims represents ALL OF AFGHANISTAN, is an unelected body, whose delegates are controlled by Kharzi in order to give himself cover to make an unpopular decision-- the always thorny issue of immunity for US troops. Unelected, and officially powerless. Even if Karzai slips up and picks elders who disagree with him, he is under no legal obligation whatsoever to yield to their decisions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/189 "2013-12-31T17:07:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yeah, Karzai’s good at hand-picking to ensure success. See the article I linked to in post #146 about the “independent” election commission disqualifying candidates for president. > > Unelected, and officially powerless. Even if Karzai slips up and picks elders who disagree with him, he is under no legal obligation whatsoever to yield to their decisions. Yeah, that’s a important point I didn’t emphasize-- the decision of the LJ is not legally binding, but it is a big political setback if the guy who calls the LJ doesn’t get the decision he wants. Now, let me make on thing perfectly clear here. I’m not bashing Obama on what he’s doing in Afghanistan. Aside from his surge (which I disagreed with), he’s doing exactly what I want him to do, even if I might want him to do it more quickly. He’s getting us the fuck out of there. He’s not trumpeting victory, and I do not expect him to acknowledge all the negative press about how “well” the war is going. He needs to be optimistic in outlook, and I think he’s doing an excellent job of not over-hyping the accomplishments like Bush did and probably would have done again. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/190 "2013-12-31T17:17:45Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You have mistaken my point. I said that the _coverage_ of the event, in the article you linked to, meets the criteria of one common definition of propaganda. > > Propaganda isn’t necessarily incorrect, let alone fabricated, though people (wrongly) use it that way. It just means that the material is intended to change minds, and that it presents only one side of an issue. The article you cited neatly qualifies. You asked, “If this article doesn’t create a favorable view of U.S.-Afghan partnership, why did you link to it?” My answer to your question is that the article did not create a view. The view is real and wad created within all the realities of this war. The article thus represents a true view of something positive that really happens in that war and should not be labeled as a creation as if all the participants are acting out some propaganda script written for them by a pro-war government. Your choice to use the word ‘create’ is the problem not your watered down interpolation of the meaning of propaganda. It’s so watered down that a feel good story about a Christmas Party does not balance out with a few lines about Afghans not present persecuting Christians. That gathering is not about practicing Christian religious beliefs in an Islamic nation. I am by no means a Christian but I celebrate Christmas with the best of them. I can say Merry Christmas to you and mean it and in the spirit of what Christ’s birth was about in a secular way. i am not trying to create some hidden neaning when I say it. That report, by not including the ills of Afghan society vs Christianity to balance it out as you request, does not make the story propaganda. I get that you don’t like our troops being there so your mild objection to this story is that our troops are there. I’m just trying to find out how your mind works in that you can’t judge a story on its very own merits within the reality that actually exist because the reality that you prefer to exist is not the reality that does exist. Our troops are there. Why not applaud this positive holiday event with their Afghan Partners? Basically saying Merry Christmas to each other out of respect for what they are doing together during the rest of the year. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/191 "2013-12-31T17:36:59Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Basically saying Merry Christmas to each other out of respect for what they are doing together during the rest of the year. We don’t have any way of knowing why the Afghans were there, since none of them is quoted in the article. They may have been there to say “Merry Christmas”, they may have attended because they didn’t want to be rude, or they have felt obligated to attend so as not to antagonize the folks on whom they are depending for security. In a country that is overwhelmingly hostile to Christians, if I had to guess\*, I’d say they were holding their noses and attending because they felt they had to. \*Which is all we can do based on the lack of info in the article ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/192 "2013-12-31T17:49:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There’s [a link in that article to another article](http://swampland.time.com/2013/10/29/the-shrinking-oil-spot-strategy/) about the shrinking areas of security in Afghanistan as the US and other international forces pull out. Here is the purpose of the letter summed up at the end. Do you know what the oversight bubbles are in reference to? 1. Will your organizations have major programs or projects—major in terms of dollar value ($5 million or greater) or because they are mission critical—under way outside of the “oversight bubbles” at the end of this calendar year? If so, please indicate the program or project name, location, dollar value, implementing partner if applicable, and expected completion date. 2. What new programs or projects will your organizations launch that will be outside of the “oversight bubbles” projected to exist at the end of the transition in December 2014? Please indicate the program or project name, location, dollar value, implementing partner if applicable, and expected completion date. 3. For current or new programs or projects that will be outside the “oversight bubbles” at the end of the transition, what specific plans have your organizations made for oversight for each project and program? Do they include special arrangements for U.S. civilian oversight access, local-national monitoring, third-party monitoring, periodic checks of work performed by local and third-party monitors, remote or automated monitoring, self-certification arrangements, other forms of oversigh ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/193 "2013-12-31T17:55:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Now, let me make on thing perfectly clear here. I’m not bashing Obama on what he’s doing in Afghanistan. Aside from his surge (which I disagreed with), he’s doing exactly what I want him to do, even if I might want him to do it more quickly. He’s getting us the fuck out of there. He’s not trumpeting victory, and I do not expect him to acknowledge all the negative press about how “well” the war is going. He needs to be optimistic in outlook, and I think he’s doing an excellent job of not over-hyping the accomplishments like Bush did and probably would have done again. I fully agree. As I’ve argued in this thread, what can actually be accomplished by the U.S. in Afghanistan falls far short of what we’d like to be able to do. Obama seems to be aware of that reality, and for that I applaud him. You can’t get blood from a stone, and you can’t invade Afghanistan and leave it as a modern, stable state. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You asked, “If this article doesn’t create a favorable view of U.S.-Afghan partnership, why did you link to it?” > > My answer to your question is that the article did not create a view. The view is real and wad created within all the realities of this war. The article thus represents a true view of something positive that really happens in that war and should not be labeled as a creation as if all the participants are acting out some propaganda script written for them by a pro-war government. > > Your choice to use the word ‘create’ is the problem not your watered down interpolation of the meaning of propaganda. Come on now, you’re trying way to hard to imply that I think this was fabricated. It’s a common idiom. If I said an ESPN article about the Miami Heat offense created the impression that they’d score a lot of points, does that imply that I think that they _won’t_ score a lot of points, or that the article is lying? Of course not. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It’s so watered down that a feel good story about a Christmas Party does not balance out with a few lines about Afghans not present persecuting Christians. I, and I believe **John** was referring to lines about the Afghans who _were_ present. Also, feel free to supply a rival definition of “propaganda”, if you don’t like the one I’m using. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That gathering is not about practicing Christian religious beliefs in an Islamic nation. I am by no means a Christian but I celebrate Christmas with the best of them. I can say Merry Christmas to you and mean it and in the spirit of what Christ’s birth was about in a secular way. i am not trying to create some hidden neaning when I say it. > > That report, by not including the ills of Afghan society vs Christianity to balance it out as you request, does not make the story propaganda. That’s not what I requested. I would like to know what the Afghans that participated thought of it, though. That seems like basic journalism to me, but I was a business major, so what do I know? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I get that you don’t like our troops being there so your mild objection to this story is that our troops are there. I’m just trying to find out how your mind works in that you can’t judge a story on its very own merits within the reality that actually exist because the reality that you prefer to exist is not the reality that does exist. I am judging it on its merits. Observe: the article was called propaganda by **John**. I read the definition of propaganda, and then re-read the article. It meets the definition. Any value judgements beyond that are the product of your mind, not mine. As I said, I have no objection to a Christmas shindig with the Afghans, beyond the fact that I don’t want our soldiers to be there. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Our troops are there. Why not applaud this positive holiday event with their Afghan Partners? Basically saying Merry Christmas to each other out of respect for what they are doing together during the rest of the year. If I were there, that’s what I’d do. But instead, I’m debated the situation in Afghanistan on a message board, so I’d rather focus on that than feel-good anecdotes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/194 "2013-12-31T18:42:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I fully agree. As I’ve argued in this thread, what can actually be accomplished by the U.S. in Afghanistan falls far short of what we’d like to be able to do. Obama seems to be aware of that reality, and for that I applaud him. You can’t get blood from a stone, and you can’t invade Afghanistan and leave it as a modern, stable state. Not to mention that it’s none of our damn business what type of state the Afghan people decide they want for themselves. The Kharzi government is widely unpopular, so with any luck the new administration will turn that around. But in the end, it would seem that most people want some type of an Islamic state, and I’ve not seen one of those yet that could be called “modern”, unless it was propped up with oodles and oodles of oil money. And even then, it’s still rare. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/195 "2013-12-31T21:14:01Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You can’t get blood from a stone, and you can’t invade Afghanistan and leave it as a modern, stable state. We have invaded Afghanistan and we have not left. Modern was not the military objective. Stable enough to be able to survive the Taliban led insurgency is the objective. To say we and Afghans can’t achieve the objective prior to leaving is unsupportable and discounts significant conditions on the ground which are trending more in the direction of success than of the absolute failure and impossibility that you predict. If our invading army is not forced to leave Afghanistan because of armed resistance to our presence then your prediction is unfounded and not verifiable. Our invading army is not being forced to leave by the enemy. That is a fact. If our invading army is invited to stay by the government that we are protecting then we are not leaving and your prediction has no conditions or time limit on leaving Afghanistan. This means there are no forthcoming results anytime soon to be applied to your ‘leaving-based’ forecast of doom. If our invading army is not invited to stay by the government of Afghanistan but the government continues to survive and progress on its own then your gloomy prediction will have no forthcoming results to verify that Afghanistan will be able to hold the insurgency at bay without the invading army’s help. If our invading army is invited to stay after 2014 and the trend toward stability continues to that point but political pressure in the US denies the invading army to continue its work then your prediction of doom will have no chance to be verified based upon Afghan capability or will because they will have done their part as evidenced by conditions on the ground at that point. Assuming Afghans fail beyond a complete US pullout in troops and money, your prediction of doom will still be untested, it will not be the Afghans who failed to follow through it will be the people in the US who deny help to afghans that have proven their will to fight with minimal support and continued invasion army training. If the last scenario plays out but Afghans somehow hold their government and army and police against the insurgency and eventually defeat it - then your prediction of doom is so far off base you will probably not be able to find it. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/196 "2013-12-31T22:01:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But in the end, it would seem that most people want some type of an Islamic state, and I’ve not seen one of those yet that could be called “modern”, unless it was propped up with oodles and oodles of oil money Kind of difficult to avoild oil in much of the Islamic world Indonesia and Pakistan appear to qaulify. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/197 "2013-12-31T22:19:19Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No, that’s just one argument. One could also question the value of propping up an incredibly corrupt government that rigs elections. We are talking about military objectives in a war zone. True? The incredibly corrupt government as you describe it has fielded an army and police force that is now bearing the brunt of the front line direct engagement with the enemy so our troops can stand out of harms way. Is there military value there or not? Or is the value rejected because it does not support your forecast for failure which does not appear to be much of a facts based belief if you cannot recognize the value of a government putting together an army and police force that takes the lead in the fighting from our troops the past two years. And stats on US casualties bear out the value of the Afghan government’s capability. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/198 "2013-12-31T22:31:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It _does_ meet one common definition of propaganda, which is: > > “A form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument.” > > …but so does plenty of government reporting. It is written by a sergeant, and published on [defense.gov](http://defense.gov), after all. How did you establish that a report about an Afghan and American Holiday Party was being presented as an argument for something? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/199 "2013-12-31T22:48:57Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And stats on US casualties bear out the value of the Afghan government’s capability. No, they don’t. This is another example of you cherry-picking data. You say in the OP that US casualties this year will be less than they were in 2008. True enough, but they will be greater this year than every single year of this war before that. US casualties this year are [127.](http://icasualties.org/oef/). And remember, the US has not been leading military operations since June. The Afghans have. And how have they been doing this year? Afghan casualties are up to 2,767, from 1,870 in 2012. If the war is winding down and getting better, why are more total troops (Coalition + Afghan) being killed this year than last year? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/200 "2013-12-31T23:17:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We don’t have any way of knowing why the Afghans were there, since none of them is quoted in the article. They may have been there to say “Merry Christmas”, they may have attended because they didn’t want to be rude, or they have felt obligated to attend so as not to antagonize the folks on whom they are depending for security. > > In a country that is overwhelmingly hostile to Christians, if I had to guess\*, I’d say they were holding their noses and attending because they felt they had to. > > \*Which is all we can do based on the lack of info in the article Do you have evidence that supports your suspicion that Army Col. Mario Diaz, commander of 4th BCT, 10th Mountain Division, is providing false information by writing… “What is present in Nangarhar is a special bond of friendship and respect, and it is my honor to be here with you today to share in the holidays,” Diaz said. “We use the holidays to focus on ourselves as a people, to enjoy our families and look forward to the future.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070.md?page=11)