# Should Girls in Afghanistan Schools be more newsworthy as an ISAF success story? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2013, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070 "2013-12-24T08:42:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/201 "2013-12-31T23:29:13Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Do you have evidence that supports your suspicion that Army Col. Mario Diaz, commander of 4th BCT, 10th Mountain Division, is providing false information by writing… > > “What is present in Nangarhar is a special bond of friendship and respect, and it is my honor to be here with you today to share in the holidays,” Diaz said. “We use the holidays to focus on ourselves as a people, to enjoy our families and look forward to the future.” No one but you cares about a party that a few folks had in Afghanistan. As everyone except you has said in this thread, we just want US troops home. I’ve said all I need to say, and more, about the party. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/202 "2013-12-31T23:42:44Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Why can it not be stated with your agreement that the war is winding down for the US Military as well as all the other ISAF forces? You appear to have pounced upon one snippet of my message and is that as far as you can go. IF you take my two statements together you’d see that what I wrote is quite accurate. I have written that the total US combat fatalities are lower than we had in 2008. In 2008 the mission was damn near lost because the Taliban were in control of 80% of the territory and had fully established their reign of terror on the inhabitants of Kandahar City which is the spiritual capitol of the Taliban. So the war was escalated by a tripling of the number of troops that were there in 2008. And American soldiers and our allies suffered a great number of casualties. But that sacrifice has driven the Taliban out of control of all that 2008 territory and they no longer control the population of Kandahar City. The peak in the fighting and casualties for foreign troops was 2011 or 2012. The war for out troops is winding down and winding down significantly. > > You say the war is not winding down and I accept that the war is ongoing now as mostly Afghan vs Afghan… And there are indications that the domestic conflict is winding down as well. The Taliban can set off bombs and IED’s against civilians and launch some significant attacks on government outposts and structures etc but just about all the Taliban attacks are suicidal whether the intent is suicide or not. The Afghan Police and Army are in the lead on all missions and in defense of the government we helped establish there. > > That is what I meant about the war winding down. When measured in combat injuries and deaths for our troops the war is winding down faster than at the rate that we are leaving. That is because the Afghans are fighting in place of our troops as they should. No reports of Taliban retaking any territory they lost since 2009. I explained to Dissonance what I mean when I say the war is winding down. See above, perhaps you missed it. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > No one but you cares about a party that a few folks had in Afghanistan. As everyone except you has said in this thread, we just want US troops home. I’ve said all I need to say, and more, about the party. Just as I call you on your written suspicions about the truthfulness of an American officer serving in combat for our nation you admit you have nothing to back up your suspicion and mount the no one cares exit strategy. That few Americans care to know much about the war in Afghanistan makes my point in this thread. So thanks for that. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/203 "2013-12-31T23:44:14Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > We have invaded Afghanistan and we have not left. Sure would be nice to leave at some point though, wouldn’t it? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Modern was not the military objective. Stable enough to be able to survive the Taliban led insurgency is the objective. It’s a political issue, and the objectives are political ones. That the state be modern and somewhat tolerant and Western-influenced was a major objective; just look at the invitees to the 2001 Bonn conference. That objective is at odds with the goal of a stable government, because Afghans seem to want a harsh Islamic government. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > To say we and Afghans can’t achieve the objective prior to leaving is unsupportable and discounts significant conditions on the ground which are trending more in the direction of success than of the absolute failure and impossibility that you predict. Preventing the Taliban from retaking control isn’t impossible, but apparently I don’t consider that alone to be the sole measure of success. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If our invading army is not forced to leave Afghanistan because of armed resistance to our presence then your prediction is unfounded and not verifiable. Our invading army is not being forced to leave by the enemy. That is a fact. Where did I remark that we’d be forced to leave by armed resistance? Re-read the sentence of mine you quoted. See the part about leaving a modern, stable state? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If our invading army is invited to stay by the government that we are protecting then we are not leaving and your prediction has no conditions or time limit on leaving Afghanistan. This means there are no forthcoming results anytime soon to be applied to your ‘leaving-based’ forecast of doom. Depends - is the government actually representative of the people? Or is it a corrupt anocracy that we’re propping up with dollars? These things matter. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If our invading army is not invited to stay by the government of Afghanistan but the government continues to survive and progress on its own then your gloomy prediction will have no forthcoming results to verify that Afghanistan will be able to hold the insurgency at bay without the invading army’s help. You are far more focused on the insurgency than I, clearly. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If our invading army is invited to stay after 2014 and the trend toward stability continues to that point but political pressure in the US denies the invading army to continue its work then your prediction of doom will have no chance to be verified based upon Afghan capability or will because they will have done their part as evidenced by conditions on the ground at that point. Assuming Afghans fail beyond a complete US pullout in troops and money, your prediction of doom will still be untested, it will not be the Afghans who failed to follow through it will be the people in the US who deny help to afghans that have proven their will to fight with minimal support and continued invasion army training. > > If the last scenario plays out but Afghans somehow hold their government and army and police against the insurgency and eventually defeat it - then your prediction of doom is so far off base you will probably not be able to find it. Again - we are focused on very different outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/204 "2013-12-31T23:54:37Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > We are talking about military objectives in a war zone. True? You are, except when you’re talking about girls in school. I’m speaking of the bigger picture. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The incredibly corrupt government as you describe it has fielded an army and police force that is now bearing the brunt of the front line direct engagement with the enemy so our troops can stand out of harms way. Is there military value there or not? Or is the value rejected because it does not support your forecast for failure which does not appear to be much of a facts based belief if you cannot recognize the value of a government putting together an army and police force that takes the lead in the fighting from our troops the past two years. And stats on US casualties bear out the value of the Afghan government’s capability. The value of a government isn’t in how many troops it can put in uniforms. Its level of popular support, ability to implement legislation, transparency and intolerance of corruption, are all crucial metrics. Meanwhile, actual performance of the Afghan forces ranges from “poor” to “terrible”. [Where have I read all this before…?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamization) > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > How did you establish that a report about an Afghan and American Holiday Party was being presented as an argument for something? By reading it: > [@](#): > > The event would continue the annual custom that strengthens the friendships of two different cultures. That’s not a quote from a participant, that’s the military’s journalist flat-out telling you what the point of the article is. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/205 "2014-01-01T00:13:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > How did you establish that a report about an Afghan and American Holiday Party was being presented as an argument for something? -NotfooledbyW > > By reading it: > _{“The event would continue the annual custom that strengthens the friendships of two different cultures.”}_ > > That’s not a quote from a participant, that’s the military’s journalist flat-out telling you what the point of the article is. And that is an argument how? Should someone argue that the event is not really happening? Should someone argue that the event 'weakens the friendships of two different cultures? Should some one argue that they are not different cultures? Should someone argue that its not an annual custom? I’ll guess I’ll have to ask again. How did you establish that a report about an Afghan and American Holiday Party was being presented as an argument for something? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/206 "2014-01-01T00:33:07Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’m speaking of the bigger picture. > > The value of a government isn’t in how many troops it can put in uniforms. Its level of popular support, ability to implement legislation, transparency and intolerance of corruption, are all crucial metrics. Are you in position to determine that you see the bigger picture and I don’t? The jist of your argument says NO! You are declaring that the value of the government is not how many troops it can put in uniform, (which by the way is not my full argument \*), and then you list what I presume is your bigger picture metrics. I agree with your metrics by the way, but where your big picture ideas fail miserably is that not one single one of those metrics can be produced and sustained when there is a major organized insurgency determined to destroy each and every one of those metrics and then some. So BIG PICTURE H.A. is Achieve the capacity to defend the fledgling government from that ruthless, vicious insurgency and then once that capability is achieved then work on the metrics. \*My full argument about the ANA and ANP is more than numbers. It is that they have been in the lead in Kabul since 2008 and since 2010 the transition has been ongoing and successful. This is commonly one of the aspects that are referred to as gains. > [@](#): > > Inteqal: Transition to Afghan lead > > Inteqal – the Dari and Pashtu word for transition – is the process by which the lead responsibility for security in Afghanistan is gradually being transitioned from the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) to the Afghan National Security Forces. Implementation is well underway with Afghan forces taking the lead for security for around 87 per cent of the Afghan population. The aim is for Afghan forces to have full responsibility for security across the country by the end of 2014. This target was set at the 2010 NATO Summit in Lisbon and confirmed by Allied leaders at the Chicago Summit in May 2012. [http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics\_87183.htm](http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_87183.htm) IF you have the counter-argument to ISAF reports, let’s see them. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/207 "2014-01-01T00:43:05Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW We have invaded Afghanistan and we have not left. > > Sure would be nice to leave at some point though, wouldn’t it? > -Human Action It would be nice had al Qaeda not attacked us and killed several thousand on American soil and al Qaeda’s leaders were given sanctuary in the Taliban controlled Afghanistan. That would have been nice. But that is not reality. And what is wrong with staying when Afghan’s are engage in the lead and Americans are there for back up for a while… Down to 10,000 strong… trainers and Special Ops fast response teams if that presence means the gains are sustained and progress is made on your government metric big picture stuff… I’ll put a few thousand of our Special Operators up against 20,000 Taliban worthless killer pigs any day as long as the Afghans themselves are holding major security intact in the lead. To me it would be nice to kill every last Taliban goon who wants to fight and keep girls out of schools - and if it takes 10,000 of our best and finest there to finish them off … I’m for it. If the Afghans quit fighting for some reason on a day to day basis then I’m for bring all of them home. But right now I’m not. Conditions on the ground don’t warrant it. And conditions are that more Taliban need to be killed or captured before we quit what 90% of Americans supported doing at the start. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/208 "2014-01-01T01:23:07Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Modern was not the military objective. Stable enough to be able to survive the Taliban led insurgency is the objective. -Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW > > It’s a political issue, and the objectives are political ones. That the state be modern and somewhat tolerant and Western-influenced was a major objective; just look at the invitees to the 2001 Bonn conference. > > That objective is at odds with the goal of a stable government, because Afghans seem to want a harsh Islamic government -Human Action Human Action is opposed to the US military involvement in Afghanistan but cannot argue against the military objective to remove the Taliban from power and help sustain a replacement government by equipping and training an army and police force that can defend it against an insurgency. An insurgency that folks at Bonn in 2001 may have underestimated as our own US President did. All problems for HA appear to be political ones with a government that could not defend itself but for the military objectives of the ISAF primarily lead by the USA. The mere fact that 4 million girls are attending schools now when under the harsh Islamic government of the Taliban in 2001 girls were banned from attending schools makes Human Actions assessment quite irresponsible according to the reality on the ground. A large part of the population is at odds with the Taliban and the harsh so called Islamic rule to ban girls from being educated and becoming literate. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/209 "2014-01-01T01:27:18Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And that is an argument how? By stating as an objective fact that the event “strengthens the friendships of two different cultures”. That is the intended takeaway. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Should someone argue that the event is not really happening? Should someone argue that the event 'weakens the friendships of two different cultures? Should some one argue that they are not different cultures? Should someone argue that its not an annual custom? I’ll guess I’ll have to ask again. Getting opinions from both the cultures involved would be a bare minimum. I’ve been rather clear on this. > [@](#): > > How did you establish that a report about an Afghan and American Holiday Party was being presented as an argument for something? By reading it. It’s not difficult. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Are you in position to determine that you see the bigger picture and I don’t? Man, you are combative. I didn’t say you don’t or can’t see the bigger picture, I said that I’m writing about the bigger picture, while you are, in these last few posts, tightly focused on the insurgency. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The jist of your argument says NO! You are declaring that the value of the government is not how many troops it can put in uniform, (which by the way is not my full argument \*), and then you list what I presume is your bigger picture metrics. I agree with your metrics by the way, but where your big picture ideas fail miserably is that not one single one of those metrics can be produced and sustained when there is a major organized insurgency determined to destroy each and every one of those metrics and then some. So BIG PICTURE H.A. is Achieve the capacity to defend the fledgling government from that ruthless, vicious insurgency and then once that capability is achieved then work on the metrics. That presumes that _this_ fledgling government is the best one to resist said insurgency, or even that a single government is the best approach. What makes you think that’s the case? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > \*My full argument about the ANA and ANP is more than numbers. It is that they have been in the lead in Kabul since 2008 and since 2010 the transition has been ongoing and successful. This is commonly one of the aspects that are referred to as gains. > > [http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics\_87183.htm](http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_87183.htm) > IF you have the counter-argument to ISAF reports, let’s see them. I don’t contest any of that, and never have. Yes, Afghanistanization is underway. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/210 "2014-01-01T01:36:34Z")
Final Post of 2013… Happy New Year. I posted the whole thing because of it’s uplifting spirit going into the new year. I doubt ISAF or U.S. Air Force Maj. Cathleen Snow will mind. Nice photo in the link… Take a look. Hopefully this will not be considered propaganda since it quotes an Afghan Scout Master. See Mohhamad Mayebi, 21, Scout Master. Of course he could be forced at gun point to say all those things… > [@](#): > > Afghan Scouts honor Coalition forces, special guests > Under a cloudless blue sky, children dressed in crisp, sage green uniforms, clapped in sync, singing and preparing to show off their well-rehearsed scouting skills. . > > By U.S. Air Force Maj. Cathleen Snow. > > Under a cloudless blue sky, children dressed in crisp, sage green uniforms, clapped in sync, singing and preparing to show off their well-rehearsed scouting skills. > > Meanwhile several Scout Masters heartily welcomed 14 Coalition forces dropping off boxes of donated goods at the Marastoon Scout Compound Nov. 29 who readily became spectators for the special presentation. > > “We often partner with the Scouts to field donations out to remote regions where Coalition forces can’t travel because of the strong Taliban presence,” said U.S. Army 2nd Lt. Devin Redding, finance officer from Avondale, Pa… > > Redding, also the director of volunteer community relations (VCR) at Camp Eggars, organizes missions to schools, orphanages, hospitals and non-governmental organizations (NGOs) throughout Kabul to distribute donations the NATO Coalition receives from various individuals and organizations throughout the world… > “The Scouts have the ability to work within the communities they live and reach many more people than we would be able to,” said Redding… > The well-mannered Scouts in matching uniforms, neckerchiefs and caps may seem a bit out of place in a war zone, but organizers of Afghanistan’s Scouting program said an emphasis on community service and self-reliance is what’s needed in a society scarred by decades of violence. > . > > Mohhamad Mayebi, 21, Scout Master, said he is proud to finally be able to carry out a family tradition because his father was a Boy Scout. “The Scouts are something different. It’s new for us. During the war we lost the scouts > > According to Afghan Scout legend, the Taliban accused the Scouts of being fire worshipers because when camping they sang and made music around a campfire… > > “The Taliban got rid of the Scouts because it consisted of Western thinking,” said Mayebi… > > The Scouting progrqam resumed in 2009, by the Physiotherapy and Rehabilitation Services for Afghanistan (PARSA) organization as a way to teach volunteerism and leadership skills and to counter youth recruitment efforts by extremists, explained Mayebi… > According to their web site, PARSA was founded in 1996 and is a private NGO that works directly with disadvantaged people in Afghanistan, focusing on issues involving orphans, women and literacy. . > > ISAF and its mission partners have contributed support and facilities to the Scouts, along with time as mentors and skill as merit badge counselors. “It’s great to know that you’re empowering young Scouts to help their communities,” said Redding. . > > Monthly service projects are held inside Coalition bases and on government compounds, such as hospitals, police and fire stations, said Redding… > > Hailing from all over the world, Coalition forces who volunteer their support also get a lot out of the visits. > “It was an extremely rewarding experience,” said U.S. Air Force Maj. Marlon Muthuveeran, ISAF civil health sector development staff officer from Alamogordo, N.M. “I have done humanitarian health visits in Vietnam, Laos and Timor Leste, but this visit was special because the PARSA Afghan scouts, many of them orphans, had lots of energy and their enthusiasm was contagious.”. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/211 "2014-01-01T01:36:54Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It would be nice had al Qaeda not attacked us and killed several thousand on American soil and al Qaeda’s leaders were given sanctuary in the Taliban controlled Afghanistan. > > That would have been nice. But that is not reality. That’s not an argument for staying indefinitely, you realize. Sunk cost fallacy and all that. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And what is wrong with staying when Afghan’s are engage in the lead and Americans are there for back up for a while… Down to 10,000 strong… trainers and Special Ops fast response teams if that presence means the gains are sustained and progress is made on your government metric big picture stuff… I’ll put a few thousand of our Special Operators up against 20,000 Taliban worthless killer pigs any day as long as the Afghans themselves are holding major security intact in the lead. > To me it would be nice to kill every last Taliban goon who wants to fight and keep girls out of schools - and if it takes 10,000 of our best and finest there to finish them off … I’m for it. > > If the Afghans quit fighting for some reason on a day to day basis then I’m for bring all of them home. But right now I’m not. Conditions on the ground don’t warrant it. And conditions are that more Taliban need to be killed or captured before we quit what 90% of Americans supported doing at the start. As long as there’s a plan to get them out soon, I can deal with it. I think Obama’s handling this pretty well. What we leave behind won’t be pretty though, at least by our standards. It won’t be post-war Germany or Japan, that’s for sure. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Human Action is opposed to the US military involvement in Afghanistan but cannot argue against the military objective to remove the Taliban from power and help sustain a replacement government by equipping and training an army and police force that can defend it against an insurgency. An insurgency that folks at Bonn in 2001 may have underestimated as our own US President did. Considering who the Bonn participants were, that’s entirely possible. That’s the fundamental contradiction of wanting a stable government _and_ a Western-friendly government at work. And again, “a” government doesn’t mean “this” government. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > All problems for HA appear to be political ones with a government that could not defend itself but for the military objectives of the ISAF primarily lead by the USA. As long as we have civilian control of the military, all strategic military problems are also political problems. It wasn’t generals in charge of the Bonn Conference and creating our Afghanistan policy. > [@](#): > > The mere fact that 4 million girls are attending schools now when under the harsh Islamic government of the Taliban in 2001 girls were banned from attending schools makes Human Actions assessment quite irresponsible according to the reality on the ground. A large part of the population is at odds with the Taliban and the harsh so called Islamic rule to ban girls from being educated and becoming literate. And if most people want a harsh Islamic government, what should we do then? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/212 "2014-01-01T01:38:27Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Final Post of 2013… Happy New Year. I posted the whole thing because of it’s uplifting spirit going into the new year. I doubt ISAF or U.S. Air Force Maj. Cathleen Snow will mind. > Hopefully this will not be considered propaganda since it quotes an Afghan Scout Master. See Mohhamad Mayebi, 21, Scout Master. Of course he could be forced at gun point to say all those things… Please learn what propaganda means. It’s not what you seem to think. _Why We Fight_ was propaganda, but it wasn’t untrue, nor was anyone forced to say anything at gunpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/213 "2014-01-01T01:39:49Z")
dp ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/214 "2014-01-01T01:43:27Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I explained to Dissonance what I mean when I say the war is winding down. See above, perhaps you missed it. So, your evidence of the war “winding down” is a DOD blurb on some Christmas party? How about you address the increasing level of Afghan security forces casualties I noted in one of my recent posts? I think that is a more significant metric than some party held on a US military base. Also, I’m still waiting for you to explain to us why you so enthusiastically embrace this “Loya Jirga” and erroneous claim that its decision is representative of “all Afghanistan”. Do you care to debate anything of substance about the war, or do you only want to talk about Christmas parties that are reported by the DOD? There’s an old Chinese saying: Be careful what you wish for. You want more news stories about the war in Afghanistan? Well, be ready for a lot more bad news than good. I told you this in my first post. Or, are you interested in censoring the news so that only “good” stories are reported? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/215 "2014-01-01T02:04:52Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > And that is an argument how? -Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW > > By stating as an objective fact that the event “strengthens the friendships of two different cultures”. That is the intended takeaway. Wife’s not ready to go out yet… So here goes. If that is an argument who is the fine upstanding officer arguing with? Do you know with any kind of certainty that anyone participating in that event disagrees with that statement? If someone from Afghanistan was quoted in agreement I believe Mace explained that if they were there under some kind of obligation and or duress they would ‘lie’ to not offend anyone. IF the US officer being quoted there believes what he is saying to be true and no one spoke up and said they disagree than his journalism cannot be questioned. What you are asking for is some kind of opposing argument to something that no one there opposes. What do you want a legal signed statement from all participants in this kind of thing stating full agreement with everything said about it. I hereby solemnly agree in the name of Allah and the our honorable President Hamid Karzai that the event I am attending truly strengthens the friendships of our two different cultures and I believe in Santa Clause but not Jesus but that is ok … these Americans here are my friends. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/216 "2014-01-01T02:10:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, your evidence of the war “winding down” is a DOD blurb on some Christmas party? Nope not even close. That is a very silly interpretation of my messages on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/217 "2014-01-01T02:31:43Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Wife’s not ready to go out yet… So here goes. If that is an argument who is the fine upstanding officer arguing with? The reader. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Do you know with any kind of certainty that anyone participating in that event disagrees with that statement? Nope, because they either weren’t asked, or their answers weren’t deemed acceptable. Only one side was presented. Now, where have I heard that before? Oh, right: Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If someone from Afghanistan was quoted in agreement I believe Mace explained that if they were there under some kind of obligation and or duress they would ‘lie’ to not offend anyone. While that’s possible, it doesn’t excuse not attempting to portray both sides of the story. Also, there are ways around this sort of thing, like keeping sources anonymous. Again, basic journalism. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > IF the US officer being quoted there believes what he is saying to be true and no one spoke up and said they disagree than his journalism cannot be questioned. If he’s writing an opinion piece. If he’s writing a news story, there’s a bit more to it than that. Waiting to see if anyone shouts out disagreement, then publishing what others think without asking them, is journalism that can be questioned. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What you are asking for is some kind of opposing argument to something that no one there opposes. What do you want a legal signed statement from all participants in this kind of thing stating full agreement with everything said about it. > > I hereby solemnly agree in the name of Allah and the our honorable President Hamid Karzai that the event I am attending truly strengthens the friendships of our two different cultures and I believe in Santa Clause but not Jesus but that is ok … these Americans here are my friends. How do you know no one opposes it, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/218 "2014-01-01T03:04:07Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Nope not even close. That is a very silly interpretation of my messages on this topic. OK. What is your evidence then? Is it the increasing casualties suffered by the Afghan security forces? Is it he casualty rate by US military that is higher than any year during the first 7 years of this war? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/219 "2014-01-01T08:29:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK. What is your evidence then? Is it the increasing casualties suffered by the Afghan security forces? Is it he casualty rate by US military that is higher than any year during the first 7 years of this war? Nope! It’s not ignoring the other side of conditions on the ground than what the proponents of quitting pay attention to: > [@](#): > > 8 Insurgents Killed in Afghan Raids > News - Afghanistan > Written by [TOLOnews.com](http://TOLOnews.com) > Tuesday, 31 December 2013 13:31 > Eight insurgents were killed and one was injured during a series of coordinated operations over the past 24 hours carried out by the Afghan National Army (ANA), Afghan National Police (ANP) and National Directorate of Security (NDS), the Afghan Ministry of Interior said in a statement on Tuesday. > > “In past 24 hours, Afghan National Police conducted several anti-terrorism joint operations with Afghan National Army and NDS to clear some of the areas from terrorists and enemies of peace and stability in Afghanistan,” read the statement. Read more: [http://mobile.tolonews.com/afghanistan/13282-8-insurgents-killed-in-afghan-raids](http://mobile.tolonews.com/afghanistan/13282-8-insurgents-killed-in-afghan-raids) Those chose to die. These choose to live: > [@](#): > > 10 rebels join peace process in Nangarhar > > KABUL (WNA-Dec. 31, 2013): As many as ten government armed oppositions have joined peace process, helping the total number to climb 251 in eastern Nangarhar province, an official said Tuesday. > Provincial peace council acting chairman, Mawlawi Abbas in an interview with Wakht News Agency confirmed the rebels surrender and said they were previously in war on the government forces and engaged in several cases of attack on the foreign forces. Read More: [http://wakht.af/en/index.php/security-and-crime/5367-10-rebels-join-peace-process-in-nangarhar.html](http://wakht.af/en/index.php/security-and-crime/5367-10-rebels-join-peace-process-in-nangarhar.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/220 "2014-01-01T16:48:09Z")
Anecdotes do not equal data. Data: Afghan security force casualties: 2,767 in 2013, up from 1,870 in 2012. Data: Afghan civilian deaths up 10% in 2013 compared to 2012. But who cares about deaths when the US had a Christmas party with a few Afghan soldiers? This must be the first war in history that was described as “winding down” when the security forces suffered a 48% increase in casualties. Is the new year 2014 or 1984? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070.md?page=12)