# Should Girls in Afghanistan Schools be more newsworthy as an ISAF success story? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2013, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070 "2013-12-24T08:42:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/101 "2013-12-29T17:24:14Z")
To Bozuit. You are being thoughtful on this topic and that is mostly what I ask. Perhaps this will make sense to you. The results from polling on Afghanistan have been majoritatively negative ever since Obama added roughly 20,000 more American troops in 2009 and launched the largest air to ground military offensive seen since Vietnam. There is no need in going through what the polls indicate about public perception of the war in my view. The polls are what they are. I’m saying it is unusual that the general love and devotion that all Americans normally have in support of our troops specifically when they help to accomplish something good such as getting 300,000 Afghans to fight for themselves and all those girls being educated and other positives like driving the Taliban out of solid control if territory they held in 2008 is not newsworthy or of interest to most who still have live for our troops. I’m asking why is that? Does it really have to be that way? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/102 "2013-12-29T18:00:56Z")
Your conflating two things: support for the war and “love and devotion that all Americans normally have in support of our troops”. People still “support the troops”, they just want them home. In fact, most people will argue that the best way to show “love and devotion” to the troops is to get them the fuck out of that hell hole. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/103 "2013-12-29T18:12:05Z")
If anyone becomes honored at some point to speak with a combat veteran of the War in Afganistan would it suffice to tell him or her that you are proud that they have given the Afghan people a shot at a better future because against tremendous odds because in part 4 million girls are now in school and 300,000 Afghans are now in uniform trying to secure the gains made? Orwould it be necessary to tell that combat veteran that you think without proof that all gains made by their efforts will be reversed because the Afghan people they served with will never be capable on their own to secure those American driven gains? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/104 "2013-12-29T18:18:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Your conflating two things: support for the war and “love and devotion that all Americans normally have in support of our troops”. People still “support the troops”, they just want them home. In fact, most people will argue that the best way to show “love and devotion” to the troops is to get them the fuck out of that hell hole. I’m not conflating anything. Why did you not respond to my full question and why did you revise the word in my question? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/105 "2013-12-29T18:19:03Z")
No matter what I thought, I wouldn’t tell an Afghan Vet that his or her actions in that country were all for naught (unless he or she specifically asked me to give them my honest assessment). What would be the point of that? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/106 "2013-12-29T18:42:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No matter what I thought, I wouldn’t tell an Afghan Vet that his or her actions in that country were all for naught (unless he or she specifically asked me to give them my honest assessment). What would be the point of that? Do you have proof that his or her actions are all for naught? If not why tell them that at all? We have proof that gains have been made at this point. I would tell them they gave the Afghans a shot and lets hope it works out. That matches my OP question if you read the whole thing and dont change a word. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/107 "2013-12-29T18:42:59Z")
**NotfooledbyW** - I’m not going to ask a third time (see post #99): have to assume you’ve been gamed by the bullshit propaganda machine and are too embarrassed to admit it. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/108 "2013-12-29T18:52:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Let’s approach this issue from another angle. Suppose that you, the OP, were able to inform every American adult of the fact that 10x as many girls (or whatever the number is) are now going to school. Every American adult now knows this. What would they do with that information? Suck Obama harder, obviously. Of course if it ever reverses trend, that’d be Bush’s fault. Anyone who’s paid attention to NFW’s posts on any subject, basically, knows that. Also, where’s the 300k strong Afghani army stat coming from, I must have missed the cite. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/109 "2013-12-29T19:00:44Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > Also, where’s the 300k strong Afghani army stat coming from, I must have missed the cite. I presume that is the total of security forces, including police. Ask our OP how many of those 300k people can read. [As of 2011](http://cnsnews.com/news/article/us-working-raise-literacy-afghan-forces-3rd-grade-level-2014-turnover) it was less than 15%. That article notes a goal of getting the literacy rate to 3rd grade level by 2014. An army of 3rd Graders isn’t very impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/110 "2013-12-29T19:04:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > An army of 3rd Graders isn’t very impressive. Well, I will say when they’re in charge of protecting Kindergartener’s from 7th century camel-lovers, it’s probably sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/111 "2013-12-29T19:13:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I presume that is the total of security forces, including police. Ask our OP how many of those 300k people can read. [As of 2011](http://cnsnews.com/news/article/us-working-raise-literacy-afghan-forces-3rd-grade-level-2014-turnover) it was less than 15%. That article notes a goal of getting the literacy rate to 3rd grade level by 2014. An army of 3rd Graders isn’t very impressive. That ‘illiterate’ army and police have been in the lead for over a year and holding their own with decreasing ISAF support. Are Taliban fighters literate enough to impress you. Werekoala’s unawareness of Afghan Security Force numbers in uniform sort of proves my point. Perhaps weve increased awareness one American at a time. Thanks John that you knew that. That is what this thread is about too. The police are in uniform and their gains and achievements have been newsworthy in my view. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/112 "2013-12-29T19:25:14Z")
Yes, but again, can you provide a cite? A standing “army” of 300,000 (that now apparently includes police) would be quite an achievement for most nations, much less Afghanistan. If it is true, then it should be noted. It would put them well ahead of the UK, for example, and in fact would make them the 17th largest army in the world. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/113 "2013-12-29T19:25:18Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > Suck Obama harder, obviously. Of course if it ever reverses trend, that’d be Bush’s fault. Anyone who’s paid attention to NFW’s posts on any subject, basically, knows that. > > Also, where’s the 300k strong Afghani army stat coming from, I must have missed the cite. Thanks for the personal attack after showing you didn’t know how many Aghans our brave men and women in uniform have helped train and develop to wear the Afghan uniform. Your personal attack encourages me that this thread is necessary and well worth posting. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/114 "2013-12-29T19:34:31Z")
The funny\* thing is that even the Obama administration doesn’t agree with the OP. > [@](#): > > [**Afghanistan gains will be lost quickly after drawdown, U.S. intelligence estimate warns**](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/afghanistan-gains-will-be-lost-quickly-after-drawdown-us-intelligence-estimate-warns/2013/12/28/ac609f90-6f32-11e3-aecc-85cb037b7236_story.html) > > A new American intelligence assessment on the Afghan war predicts that the gains the United States and its allies have made during the past three years are likely to have been significantly eroded by 2017, even if Washington leaves behind a few thousand troops and continues bankrolling the impoverished nation, according to officials familiar with the report. Now, that article goes on to say that this is not the unanimous conclusion, but it is the consensus conclusion of the 16 intelligence agencies that create the NIE. \*sad funny, not “ha-ha” funny ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/115 "2013-12-29T19:41:36Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > Yes, but again, can you provide a cite? A standing “army” of 300,000 (that now apparently includes police) would be quite an achievement for most nations, much less Afghanistan. If it is true, then it should be noted. It would put them well ahead of the UK, for example, and in fact would make them the 17th largest army in the world. Standing Army is your phrase. Pull back the insinuation that I said standing Army and I will find once again a cite for you. It is not disputed by those who follow what is going on. Mace set you straight. I originally said ‘in uniform’ and the police are ‘in uniform.’ And I believe the combined Afghan Security Forces were at around 150,000 in 2008. Since 2008 they’ve increased in numbers and have taken the lead in security operations nationwide. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/116 "2013-12-29T19:45:37Z")
Why do you need me to change my definition before you provide a cite? You clearly have a definition of “in uniform” and must have backup evidence, so post it. Why wait for me? As to the personal attack - which one was that? Do you deny you’re a shill for Obama “successes” and strive to blame any setbacks on Bush? Your user name alone supports at least half of that assertion, much less your posting history. Also, I find it humorous that you’re “Not Fooled by W” with an account that was created over four years after he left office. Maybe not fooled, but apparently not in a hurry to proclaim it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/117 "2013-12-29T19:48:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The funny\* thing is that even the Obama administration doesn’t agree with the OP. > > Now, that article goes on to say that this is not the unanimous conclusion, but it is the consensus conclusion of the 16 intelligence agencies that create the NIE. > > \*sad funny, not “ha-ha” funny How did you translate that into ‘does not agree with the OP’? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/118 "2013-12-29T19:59:09Z")
I wont allow this thread be hijacked by responding to blatant personal attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/119 "2013-12-29T20:06:30Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I wont allow this thread be hijacked by responding to blatant personal attacks. Or legitimate questions… Still awaiting your cite, I’m sure it’s forthcoming. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/120 "2013-12-29T20:18:56Z")
According to Wikipedia the Afghan Army is at 200,000. [http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan\_National\_Army](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_National_Army) According to Wikipedia the Afghan Police are at 157,000. > **[Afghan National Police](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_National_Police)** > > The Afghan National Police (ANP; Pashto: د افغانستان ملي پولیس; Dari: پلیس ملی افغانستان) is the national police force of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, serving as a single law enforcement agency all across the country. The Afghan Border Police, which has stations along the nation's border and at major airports, is a separate component of the force. The ANP is under the responsibility of the Ministry of Interior Affairs in Kabul, Afghanistan, and is headed by Sirajuddin Haqqani. It has ne Th... That’s 357,000. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070.md?page=7)