# Should Girls in Afghanistan Schools be more newsworthy as an ISAF success story? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2013, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070 "2013-12-24T08:42:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/121 "2013-12-29T20:36:13Z")
From the movie Scarface: Look at chyoo now! ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/122 "2013-12-29T20:43:51Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > If it is true, then it should be noted. The Afghan National Police are on the frontlines with the Army. That makes the total in uniform at 357,000. Do you stand by your word that it should be noted? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/123 "2013-12-29T21:32:10Z")
NATO is expanding the Afghan armed forces to about 260,000 active personnel by 2015, a move supported and funded primarily by the United States Department of Defense.[3 From Wikipedia. Why didnt WereKoala have at least a general impression of what has transpired in Afghanistan regarding the size Afghan Security Forces. That is kind of the point of this thread. How can that be? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/124 "2013-12-29T21:43:53Z")
The point of the thread was school,ing, but you lost that point by failing to respond to direct questions. The rest is wind and piss. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/125 "2013-12-29T21:48:14Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > According to Wikipedia the Afghan Army is at 200,000. > > [Afghan National Security Forces - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_National_Army) > According to Wikipedia the Afghan Police are at 157,000. > > [Afghan National Police - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_National_Police) > That’s 357,000. Well played, you went to the same source I did when I said that your figures would make the Afghan army the 17th largest in the world, even ahead of the UK. I had already looked there before I asked you for a cite. So what was your cite before you were challenged, and why didn’t you post it earlier? C’mon, don’t be ashamed to cite lib talking points and websites, NFW - it’s what shills do. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/126 "2013-12-29T22:35:34Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > The point of the thread was school,ing, but you lost that point by failing to respond to direct questions. > > The rest is wind and piss. No. the point includes all positive news. Read my posts. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/127 "2013-12-29T22:36:49Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > Well played, you went to the same source I did when I said that your figures would make the Afghan army the 17th largest in the world, even ahead of the UK. I had already looked there before I asked you for a cite. > > So what was your cite before you were challenged, and why didn’t you post it earlier? > > C’mon, don’t be ashamed to cite lib talking points and websites, NFW - it’s what shills do. Nice cop out. It was expected. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/128 "2013-12-29T22:40:16Z")
So WereKoala didnt look up Afghan Security Force numbers until today? This thread is necessary. Many Americans are not up on the facts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/129 "2013-12-29T22:55:20Z")
Yes, it’s crucially important that Americans know the exact size of the Afghan Security Forces. Especially since your own cite says: > [@](#): > > “Determining ANSF strength is fraught with challenges. U.S. and coalition forces rely on the Afghan forces to report their own personnel strength numbers. Moreover, the Combined Security Transition Command-Afghanistan (CSTC-A) noted that, in the case of the Afghan National Army, there is “no viable method of validating [their] personnel numbers.” SIGAR will continue to follow this issue to determine whether U.S. financial support to the ANSF is based on accurately reported personnel numbers.” Not to mention that what is really important is [quality, not quantity.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/afghan-security-forces-rapid-expansion-comes-at-a-cost-as-readiness-lags/2012/10/20/38af200a-16cb-11e2-a55c-39408fbe6a4b_story.html) But that would fall under “bad news”, and so probably not something Americans should be informed about. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/130 "2013-12-29T23:08:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, it’s crucially important that Americans know the exact size of the Afghan Security Forces. Especially since your own cite says: > > Not to mention that what is really important is [quality, not quantity.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/afghan-security-forces-rapid-expansion-comes-at-a-cost-as-readiness-lags/2012/10/20/38af200a-16cb-11e2-a55c-39408fbe6a4b_story.html) But that would fall under “bad news”, and so probably not something Americans should be informed about. The current good news is that Afghan Security Forces are holding their own agsinst insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/131 "2013-12-29T23:20:47Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The current good news is that Afghan Security Forces are holding their own agsinst insurgents. And yet you think that the gains made so far will most likely deteriorate significantly by 2017. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/132 "2013-12-30T00:04:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And yet you think that the gains made so far will most likely deteriorate significantly by 2017. Nope. Cynics make me sick. [http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/afghanistan\_70611.html](http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/afghanistan_70611.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/133 "2013-12-30T14:44:28Z")
^ It’s just as well the thread isn’t about you, then. Fwiw, you have lost all credibility on the schooling issue by refusing to even acknowledge, let alone provide examples of, qualitative data to support you primary assertion: you have absolutely no idea what happens once the school ‘register’ is read to the alleged 10 million children, even though it is clearly in the interests of those receiving aid to report results. You could almost wonder why they are keen to promote a basic number(the ’10 million’), and nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/134 "2013-12-30T15:03:01Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > again: what is the quality of the teaching… Pretty bad. [National Education Strategic Plan for Afghanistan, Ministry of Education](http://www.iiep.unesco.org/fileadmin/user_upload/News_And_Events/pdf/2010/Afghanistan_NESP.pdf) > [@](#): > > The poor quality of education in Afghanistan is affected by multiple factors including few teachers with thorough content-based knowledge and an understanding of effective teaching methods; the lack of safe, conducive learning spaces; and low quality teaching and learning materials. Teacher-centered classrooms and rote learning are the norm in Afghanistan’s classrooms. Although there has not been a comprehensive study on violence in classrooms, there are anecdotal reports of physical punishment of students as a classroom management technique. > > In addition, teachers rarely target their teaching to address the specific learning needs of each child in their class. Efforts are mainly centered on the brighter children and little attention is given to children who are experiencing difficulty (see also Spink 2004). Existing classroom-based methods are not effective in teaching students to read and write and they do not develop the critical thinking and analytical skills of students. Teachers either do not know how to implement more student-centered methods or are not motivated to change their teaching style. Improving the pedagogical skills of teachers as well as their content knowledge is critical to improving the quality of education in Afghanistan. As for [why this is:](http://wusc.ca/en/program/certifying-teachers-afghanistan) > [@](#): > > Three decades of war, socio-economic and political conflict, and repression have devastated Afghanistan’s educational system, which was already at a low level. During this time, an estimated 80% of trained teachers and university professors either fled the country or took other jobs. [QUOTE=BrokenBriton] who is assessing reading and writing skills - you are surely not projecting a version of ‘education’ based on your own experience, that would obviously be hopelessly naive and silly? [/quote] There hasn’t been much in the way of standard assessments. This is a country that can’t even reliably report how many people are in its army, after all. [This study](http://www.heart-resources.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Learning-Outcomes-in-Afghanistan-August-2011.pdf) was an effort to measure education outcomes in Afghanistan: > [@](#): > > A study of learning outcomes in 2010, devised a curricula-based test for a small sample of male and female students in Grades 3 and 6. The results were poor: > [@](#): > > The study found low levels of average achievement (an average score of 52% for Grade 3 students, and 53% for Grade 6 students), though girls seemed to do slightly better than boys, and students in community-based schools scored higher (an average score of 68%) than students in other schools. That paper also identifies a key bottleneck in Afghani education: grade 5. > [@](#): > > For the first four years of primary school, numbers remain reasonably steady. Thereafter, almost a fifth of primary students may be lost before the end of Grade 6. The chances of acquiring and retaining literacy and numeracy are very limited without four to five years of good primary education, so many children will fail to reach even minimum standards. > > … > > The lowest pass rate is at the end of Grade 4, at 64%. This means that 65,000 Grade 4 children (36%) could not move on to Grade 5 plus the nearly quarter of a million children who were absent from the exam altogether. After that, pass rates improve. It seems that children either leave school around grade 5, or stay in and do reasonably well. One other bit of positive news is that youth literacy is now estimated to surpass adult literacy: > [@](#): > > There are no accurate data on this issue, and literacy is notoriously difficult to assess, but one estimate puts youth literacy (15-24 years of age) at around 34% (18% for women) and adult literacy at 28% (13% for women). > [@BrokenBriton](#): > > A lot of emotionally-invested money and political grandstanding invested in purporting to educate Afghani children, not seeing any independent measurements. The effort to educate Afghani children is sizeable and genuine, but the obstacles facing it are tremendous. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/135 "2013-12-30T15:11:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The effort to educate Afghani children is sizeable and genuine, but the obstacles facing it are tremendous. And, sadly, the Obama administration predicts that it will get significantly worse in the next few years. However, if you ask Americans if they think we should keep more troops in Afghanistan to ensure a better educational outcome for the children, I’m certain the overwhelming answer would be: NO! We’ve done our bit, and now it’s up to them. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/136 "2013-12-30T15:18:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And, sadly, the Obama administration predicts that it will get significantly worse in the next few years. However, if you ask Americans if they think we should keep more troops in Afghanistan to ensure a better educational outcome for the children, I’m certain the overwhelming answer would be: NO! We’ve done our bit, and now it’s up to them. That’d be my answer as well. Even beyond the “we’ve done our bit” sentiment, which is perfectly acceptable, I’d argue that there are limits to the amount of cultural change that can be imposed from without by foreigners. Real, systemic change to Afghan society, if it’s to occur and stick, will probably only happen in the absence of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/137 "2013-12-30T15:24:52Z")
Actually, Afghanistan in the 1950s (under the King) was a much more liberal place. Women wore western dress, there was a non-Islamic university system, and Christians and Jews were accepted. the fall of the monarchy ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/138 "2013-12-30T15:25:04Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’d be my answer as well. Even beyond the “we’ve done our bit” sentiment, which is perfectly acceptable, I’d argue that there are limits to the amount of cultural change that can be imposed from without by foreigners. Real, systemic change to Afghan society, if it’s to occur and stick, will probably only happen in the absence of Americans. Indeed. And to be frank, our military folk are basically trained to destroy things and kill people. Giving them the task of “nation building” is rather naive. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/139 "2013-12-30T17:21:21Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Pretty bad. > [National Education Strategic Plan for Afghanistan, Ministry of Education](http://www.iiep.unesco.org/fileadmin/user_upload/News_And_Events/pdf/2010/Afghanistan_NESP.pdf) Thanks for digging that out. For those who didn’t look at the pdf, it’s a summary of earlier studies - some perhaps more tokenistic while others seem credible. Many date back 10 years and even 13 years. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > The effort to educate Afghani children is sizeable and genuine, but the obstacles facing it are tremendous. … is a view. Certainly the establishment of a primary (school) curriculum appears to be significant. The quality of teaching appears to be very poor, less than half the schools have walls and roofs (unhelpful in that climate) and assessment of teachers is, at best, piecemeal ánd the results alarming. And that is the tip if that iceberg. I think I have to go back to my initial assertion that a lot of emotionally-invested money and political grandstanding is invested in purporting to educate Afghani children … it serves very many indeed if poor outcomes are not reported, or even acknowledged. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070/140 "2013-12-30T17:40:12Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > … is a view. Do you disagree with it? [QUOTE=BrokenBriton] Certainly the establishment of a primary (school) curriculum appears to be significant. The quality of teaching appears to be very poor, less than half the schools have walls and roofs (unhelpful in that climate) and assessment of teachers is, at best, piecemeal ánd the results alarming. And that is the tip if that iceberg. [/quote] Well, sure. Again, tremendous obstacles. Where are you going to find teachers in a country in which 80% of them fled, where a quarter of the population is literate? And, as the Strategic Plan mentions, while Afghani education is required to be consistent with Islam, it also must include “modern principles of inclusion and tolerance”, so poaching teachers from madrassas is off the table, and you’ve lost whatever portion of the population would be willing to teach, as long as the curriculum was radical Islamism. What educational traditions that exist are rooted in practices that are painfully outdated and ineffective: rote memorization, and corporal punishment. How to you fund schools through [one of the most corrupt governments on earth?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index) Education spending accounts for about 17% of Afghanistan’s national budget, how much of that actually reaches the schools? Not much, I’d wager. > [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I think I have to go back to my initial assertion that a lot of emotionally-invested money and political grandstanding is invested in purporting to educate Afghani children … it serves very many indeed if poor outcomes are not reported, or even acknowledged. A bad education is better than no education, and what’s being delivered in Afghanistan now might be the best possible under the circumstances, or close to it. As has been pointed out, heartbreakingly, this is probably the high point of modern Afghani education. Things will almost certainly decline as the U.S. withdraws troops and money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-girls-in-afghanistan-schools-be-more-newsworthy-as-an-isaf-success-story/677070.md?page=8)