Should Girls in Afghanistan Schools be more newsworthy as an ISAF success story?

[NotfooledbyW]

Mace is not correct that the article is propaganda whether we go by his original accusation that the report is pretending that bad conditions do not exist for Christians in Afghan culture or by your sweetened version that you want to argue that a holiday party decreases the friendships of attendees at a holiday party. No writer can anticipate every silly argument that might be posed just so their work will not be called propaganda by silly argumentative people for no worthwhile purpose.

And Mace did not mention increase in friendships as what prompted his derogatory slur against a US military officer by accusing him of pretending something bad in Afghanistan did not exist.

Mace was wrong to call it propaganda based upon the definition you v
Brought to try and sweeten the word propaganda up.

Mace slurred the report based upon something that was not in the report with an apparent attempt to convince you that it was in the report and you must believe him since you do not question him on it.

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

These threads would be about 90% shorter if we could just eliminate the stuff that you make up. Won’t someone think of the electrons?

You cannot point to one thing I have made up so your generalization is a dodge and your point makes no sense.
Why did you say ‘Let’s not pretend’ in the same post where you called a report about a holiday event in a combat zone propaganda. There is nothing in that report presenting one side of an argument that no issues exist between Afghans and Christian. The report is pretending no such thing.

I did not make up what you put in writing.

[Human_Action]

Here’s a thought: don’t combine my and John Mace’s arguments. Addressing whatever you think his motives or argument is does nothing to address mine. My argument remains: that article was propaganda. Full stop. All this other stuff about a different article about Christians in Afghanistan and whatnot has nothing to do with me.

@NotfooledbyW

Mace is not correct that the article is propaganda whether we go by his original accusation that the report is pretending that bad conditions do not exist for Christians in Afghan culture or by your sweetened version that you want to argue that a holiday party decreases the friendships of attendees at a holiday party. No writer can anticipate every silly argument that might be posed just so their work will not be called propaganda by silly argumentative people for no worthwhile purpose.

You are reduced to saying that objective coverage of an event between two groups of people and the impact the event has on them should have input from both groups, is “silly”, and that criticism of this lack of balance or objectivity couldn’t be anticipated. Wow.

As for me being argumentative…I stated a fact, and backed it up. Here’s how it could have gone: you could have admitted that the article was, by definition, propaganda, but that didn’t make it untrue, and provided plenty more articles about cooperation and understanding between the Afghans and Americans, which I’m sure exist. It’s probably a cottage industry, in fact, at least on defense.gov. Some portion of them are bound to be objective news pieces.

Instead, you’ve dug in your heels on this point where you are factually incorrect, rather than making the larger point you were trying to make by linking to that article in the first place.

@NotfooledbyW

And Mace did not mention increase in friendships as what prompted his derogatory slur against a US military officer by accusing him of pretending something bad in Afghanistan did not exist.

I sure don’t remember any slur…but you’ll have to take that up with him.

@NotfooledbyW

Mace was wrong to call it propaganda based upon the definition you v
Brought to try and sweeten the word propaganda up.

Um, I went to wikipedia for the definition. I didn’t scour the web for some oddball, obscure one. Either find a different one, or accept that that’s what the word means. You’re trying to have your cake and eat it to, by criticizing this definition (it’s “watered down”, or “broad”, or “sweet”) without finding a different one. This is handy for you, since it spares you the effort of finding a different one, and/or facing that the article still qualifies under other definitions.

@NotFooledbyW

Mace slurred the report based upon something that was not in the report with an apparent attempt to convince you that it was in the report and you must believe him since you do not question him on it.

No, I concluded that he was contrasting the one article with the other. The second article has nothing to do with whether the first was propaganda or not.

Separate things are separate.

One more thing: I challenged you to tell me what would have to be changed to make the article propaganda. You brushed this off, but it’s a legitimate and useful approach. If you’re telling me that A isn’t B, you should be able to show me a B and contrast it to A.

[John_Mace]

Just to be clear, that last quote is not form me. Human Action appears to have made a coding error.

Note that this is just an honest mistake. Not a “slur” or something that is “silly”.

[Human_Action]

So I did. I apologize, and will contact a mod.

[NotfooledbyW]

If one complains that someone is pretending through the use of propaganda that something bad does not exist, and the complaint comes with evidence that something bad really does exist, then isn’t that person being accused of using propaganda in essence of lying and being deceitful in a way to influence people through deceit and denial of a clear fact?

Is that not a derogatory complaint about what that person is doing? I see nothing nice about such a complaint.

[Human_Action]

@NotfooledbyW

If one complains that someone is pretending through the use of propaganda that something bad does not exist, and the complaint comes with evidence that something bad really does exist, then isn’t that person being accused of using propaganda in essence of lying and being deceitful in a way to influence people through deceit and denial of a clear fact?

Is that not a derogatory complaint about what that person is doing? I see nothing nice about such a complaint.

Your first premise (“if one complains that someone is pretending through the use of propaganda that something bad does not exist”) is false, though. Re-read post 167. If John Mace is accusing anyone of denying that something exists, it’s you, not the writer of the article.

[Jonathan_Chance]

To make it clear, I altered the attribution on Human Actions final quote in Post #263.

Have a nice day.

[Shodan]

[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW;16975648I]
I have therefore posted an uplifting and positive article about Western Style Scouting in war-torn Afghanistan that contains quotes from the **other side **as you have been demanding.
[/QUOTE]
Earning their merit badges in counter-insurgency, no doubt.

Could you post a brief definition of what you think “propaganda” means?

Regards,
Shodan

[NotfooledbyW]

@Human_Action

Your first premise (“if one complains that someone is pretending through the use of propaganda that something bad does not exist”) is false, though. Re-read post 167. If John Mace is accusing anyone of denying that something exists, it’s you, not the writer of the article.

John Mace wrote: “Let’s not pretend that this is a country where Christians can openly practice their faith unless they are under the protection of the US or NATO military.”

If Mace was accusing me of pretending and not the author of the report why not apply the propaganda to me and not the writer in the same post. But this argument fails as well. I have never pretended that Afghans overall don’t care that much for Christians just like the writer of that report did not pretend that either.

You still have the same problem that goes with your failure to show that an increase in friendship at the event is a one-sided argument or any kind of argument at all.

I say so does not cut it for me.

[NotfooledbyW]

@Shodan

Earning their merit badges in counter-insurgency, no doubt.

Could you post a brief definition of what you think “propaganda” means?

Regards,
Shodan

One meaning is the one H.Action cites. The report does not fit that definition because ‘increasing friendships’ was not presented as one side of an argument as H.Action claims.

Did you get to the grocery store yet?

[Shodan]

@NotfooledbyW

One meaning is the one H.Action cites. The report does not fit that definition because ‘increasing friendships’ was not presented as one side of an argument as H.Action claims.

What do you think it means? I am trying to figure out what the hell you are talking about, and having little success.

Did you get to the grocery store yet?

AFAICT if Obama couldn’t get the police to bomb my car, I’m there already even if I am sitting in the driveway.

Regards,
Shodan

[Human_Action]

@NotfooledbyW

John Mace wrote: “Let’s not pretend that this is a country where Christians can openly practice their faith unless they are under the protection of the US or NATO military.”

If Mace was accusing me of pretending and not the author of the report why not apply the propaganda to me and not the writer in the same post. But this argument fails as well. I have never pretended that Afghans overall don’t care that much for Christians just like the writer of that report did not pretend that either.

I can’t tell you why someone else wrote what they did in the way they did it. That said, just because the two points were contained in a single post, doesn’t mean they aren’t distinct points.

@NotfooledbyW

You still have the same problem that goes with your failure to show that an increase in friendship at the event is a one-sided argument or any kind of argument at all.

I say so does not cut it for me.

Argument:

4. a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point.
5. an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; persuasive discourse.

@the article

The event would continue the annual custom that strengthens the friendships of two different cultures.

That is an argument, chief. It’s a claim that the event strengthens the friendships of Afghans and Americans.

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

Interesting propaganda. Note that there isn’t a single quote from an Afghan in the whole article. A bunch of Americans patting themselves on the back.

Are those the two reasons you called the report propaganda? Just want to be clear here since the rest of the same post apparently has no relationship to the report you called propaganda.

Just to let you know, those two reasons do not fit any definition of propaganda that has been presented here by H.Action.

[John_Mace]

I see no reason to rehash the same arguments about that article, because:

1. You’re the only one who seems to have been fooled by it.

2. No one but you even seems interested in it anyway.

[NotfooledbyW]

It’s not about the article itself - it is about you calling it propaganda. I thought the reason was your complaint that there was some pretending going on. But now that’s not it. Or is it? If you cannot answer my question then you must not know why you called the report propaganda. And we can leave it at that.

[NotfooledbyW]

“The event would continue the annual custom that strengthens the friendships of two different cultures.” is a statement, and a claim but it is not ‘*for or against a point’ *.

A statement was made with an intent to inform that something good comes out if it. And there is no evidence the author was arguing for or against a point. By your definition you have not made a case that the writer is making an argument one-sided or otherwise for or against any point.

Reporting is telling the facts of what the reporter sees and researches. This reporter sees an annual Holiday gathering that strengthens the friendships that are there. He sees no weakened friendships to report. Where is the argument?

[Human_Action]

@NotfooledbyW

“The event would continue the annual custom that strengthens the friendships of two different cultures.” is a statement, and a claim but it is not ‘*for or against a point’ *.

A statement was made with an intent to inform that something good comes out if it. And there is no evidence the author was arguing for or against a point. By your definition you have not made a case that the writer is making an argument one-sided or otherwise for or against any point.

That the event strengthens friendships is the point. It literally is the argument.

@NotfooledbyW

Reporting is telling the facts of what the reporter sees and researches. This reporter sees an annual Holiday gathering that strengthens the friendships that are there. He sees no weakened friendships to report. Where is the argument?

How does he know the effect of the event? Telepathy?

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

1. You’re the only one who seems to have been fooled by it.

How exactly am I fooled by this observation by a US military officer regarding a Holiday party attended by his Afghsn friends.

“The event would continue the annual custom that strengthens the friendships of two different cultures.”

H.Action tells us essentially that the above statement could be true - right here: " Here’s how it could have gone: you could have admitted that the article was, by definition, propaganda, but that didn’t make it untrue, and provided plenty more articles about cooperation and understanding between the Afghans and Americans, which I’m sure exist.

How can the observation in the Holiday story fool someone unless its untrue? Can someone be fooled into believing the truth?

I wonder if John Mace believes that the event continues the annual custom that strengthens the friendships of two different cultures. It seems that he doesn’t buy it would be nice to get a direct answer from him.

[NotfooledbyW]

@Human_Action

That the event strengthens friendships is the point. It literally is the argument.

He sees friendship is strengthened by the event and seeing no argument why would you insist the he is making a point in an argument? It is not an argument if no one argues agsinst him.
And how’s this? A wounded combat veteran goes back to Afghanistan and sees progress by the Afghans since 2012.

“You know, I thought it was just a rotational deployment and today I learned otherwise, and it’s awesome to know that Afghanistan has taken hold of their own and to know that the military sacrifice hasn’t gone either unnoticed or without change.”

. Read More:

http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-news-list/wounded-warriors-visit-afghanistan.html
Wouldn’t it be great to have this wounded warriors as a guests on major news shows to provide the other side of the negative coverage on a war they served in?