# Should Gov. Corzine be Jailed for Ignoring laws? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438 "2007-04-24T11:44:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/1 "2007-04-24T11:44:09Z")
Gov. Corzine’s 12 MPG SUV was being driven at speeds up to 91 MPH, when it crashed, almost killing Corzine. Corzine was NOT wearing his seatbelt-a violation of NJ state laws. Also, he had (illegally) ordered his state police driver to exceed the speed limit (55 MPH). So, should Corzine face jail and fines for his flouting of the law? I have a big problem with public officials who think they are above the law-shouldn’t Corzine face substantial penalties for these egregious violations? also-the state trooper driving the SUV-shouldn’t he be dismissed as well? ---
**Author:** ![padabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@padabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/padabe)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/2 "2007-04-24T11:55:26Z")
What’s up with state troopers chauffeuring the governor around, anyway? Was the trooper on duty at the time? Is this common in other states? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/3 "2007-04-24T12:10:12Z")
The driver should get the usual penalties for going 36 MPH over the limit, and the governor should get the usual penalties for not wearing the seatbelt. Sounds pretty open-and-shut to me. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/4 "2007-04-24T12:13:43Z")
Oh, also: If the trooper had his sirens and flashers on, he should face the usual penalty for using sirens in a non-emergency situation. And if they were off, he should face the usual penalty for going over the speed limit without them. In this and my previous post: When I wrote “usual penalty”, what I meant was “statutory penalty”. I had forgotten that the _usual_ penalty is none at all. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/5 "2007-04-24T12:29:46Z")
Hmmm. The man’s in critical condition in the hospital. I don’t know what happened to the Trooper, but I vaguely remember the reports on Corzine saying that he died in the crash. Granted both are guilty of traffic infractions, and neither are above the law, I’m wondering exactly how nasty you feel the court system should get here, **Ralph**. And if maybe you need to develop a sense of proportion. Gee, if he survives and is able to stand, let’s stand him up against a wall and have a firing squad execute him for failure to wear his seatbelt! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/6 "2007-04-24T12:35:37Z")
From New Jersey statute: > [@](#): > > 39:3-76.2f Seat belt usage requirements for persons ages 8-18; driver’s responsibility. > > 1. a. Except as provided in P.L.1983, c.128 (C.39:3-76.2a et al.) for children under eight years of age and weighing less than 80 pounds, all passengers under eight years of age and weighing more than 80 pounds, and all passengers who are at least eight years of age but less than 18 years of age, and each driver and front seat passenger of a passenger automobile operated on a street or highway in this State shall wear a properly adjusted and fastened safety seat belt system as defined by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard Number 209. > > b.The driver of a passenger automobile shall secure or cause to be secured in a properly adjusted and fastened safety seat belt system, as defined by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard Number 209, any passenger who is at least eight years of age but less than 18 years of age. > > For the purposes of the “Passenger Automobile Seat Belt Usage Act,” the term “passenger automobile” shall include vans, pick-up trucks and utility vehicles. > > L.1984,c.179,s.2; amended 1999, c.422, s.1; 2001, c.244, s.2. > > 39:3-76.2g Exceptions to seat belt usage requirements. > > 3.This act shall not apply to a driver or front seat passenger of: > > a.A passenger automobile manufactured before July 1, 1966; > > b.A passenger automobile in which the driver or passenger possesses a written verification from a licensed physician that the driver or passenger is unable to wear a safety seat belt system for physical or medical reasons; > > c.A passenger automobile which is not required to be equipped with a safety seat belt system under federal law; > > d.A passenger automobile operated by a rural letter carrier of the United States Postal Service while performing the duties of a rural letter carrier; or > > e.A passenger automobile which was originally constructed with fewer safety seat belt systems than are necessary to allow the passenger to be buckled. > > L.1984,c.179,s.3; amended 1999, c.422, s.2. That’s the only statute I could find on seat belt usage, which seems to oddly not apply to anyone over the age of 18 who is not in the driver’s seat or front passenger seat, so if Corzine was in the back, it would not apply to him. Here is the punishment for violation of the statute: > [@](#): > > 39:3-76.2j Violations, fines. > > 6.A person who violates section 2 of this act shall be fined $20.00. In no case shall motor vehicle points or automobile insurance eligibility points pursuant to section 26 of P.L.1990, c.8 (C.17:33B-14) be assessed against any person for a violation of this act. A person who is fined under this section for a violation of this act shall not be subject to a surcharge under the New Jersey Merit Rating Plan as provided in section 6 of P.L.1983, c.65 (C.17:29A-35). > > L.1984,c.179,s.6; amended 1999, c.422, s.3. So no, even if the above statute applies to Governor Corzine, he should not be jailed, because the punishment for not wearing your seat belt in New Jersey is apparently a $20.00 fine. The State Trooper who was speeding being jailed is another matter, New Jersey law provides for jailing him for reckless driving, but doesn’t require it: > [@](#): > > 39:4-96. Reckless driving; punishment > 39:4-96. A person who drives a vehicle heedlessly, in willful or wanton disregard of the rights or safety of others, in a manner so as to endanger, or be likely to endanger, a person or property, shall be guilty of reckless driving and be punished by imprisonment in the county or municipal jail for a period of not more than 60 days, or by a fine of not less than $50.00 or more than $200.00, or both. > > On a second or subsequent conviction he shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than three months, or by a fine of not less than $100 or more than $500, or both. > > Amended 1955,c.220,s.1; 1982,c.45,s.3; 1995,c.70,s.2. I’m not sure if what he did would be considered reckless driving (was anyone else outside the car injured in the accident, or put in danger by his driving?) If not, he could still be punished for speeding in general can still be punished by up to 15 days in jail, a $50.00 to $200.00 fine, or both (according to the statutes I’ve been able to find.) Corzine certainly shouldn’t be held responsible for the driving, he wasn’t driving. I don’t think you can convict someone of reckless driving because he told _someone else_ to drive recklessly. The State Trooper was not only a free adult able to make his own decisions, but he was a police officer and knows the traffic laws and should have known better. Governor or not, he should have said, “I’m sorry, I can’t drive at this speed, it isn’t safe.” And what could Corzine have done? His political career would be ruined if the state trooper in question was punished for _refusing to break the law for him_. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/7 "2007-04-24T12:35:57Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Corzine was NOT wearing his seatbelt-a violation of NJ state laws. Also, he had (illegally) ordered his state police driver to exceed the speed limit (55 MPH). So, should Corzine face jail and fines for his flouting of the law? [/QUOTE] Two questions: Has anyone ever been jailed for not wearing a seatbelt? Has anyone even been prosecuted (much less jailed) for \*ordering \* another to exceed the speed limit? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/8 "2007-04-24T12:40:45Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Two questions: Has anyone ever been jailed for not wearing a seatbelt? Has anyone even been prosecuted (much less jailed) for \*ordering \* another to exceed the speed limit? [/QUOTE] In New Jersey I doubt it, driving without a seat belt carries a $20.00 fine, no jail time. Ordering another to exceed the speed limit is also highly unlikely. Obviously reckless driving can get you some jail time (can, in many cases it does not, it just results in a huge fine.) ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/9 "2007-04-24T12:51:39Z")
Arguably, the state trooper didn’t violate any laws – it looks to be a judgment call on the part of the state trooper drivers for the governor on when they can put on the flashers and exceed the speed limit to get the governor somewhere – and despite Corzine’s quite horrific injuries, his chief of staff “expects and encourages” the state police to cite the governor for not wearing a seat belt. > [@](#): > > Rasinski, Corzine’s driver, walked away from the accident with minor injuries. He was wearing a seat belt. The governor was not, which is another violation of New Jersey law. > > **Tom Shea, Corzine’s chief of staff, told The Philadelphia Inquirer he expects and encourages the state police to issue a citation to the governor for not wearing a seat belt.** > > Since the crash the governor has been in critical but stable condition, has been breathing on a ventilator and has undergone multiple surgeries at Cooper University Hospital in Camden. > > As a result of the accident, New Jersey State Police Superintendent Col. Joseph Fuentes said the governor’s drivers would be asked to obey all traffic laws in a nonemergency situation, which was the case when the crash took place. Corzine was running late for a meeting between the Rutgers women’s basketball team and Don Imus. > > However, Fuentes said the troopers have the discretion to use emergency lights and to speed as necessary. [cite](http://internetservices.readingeagle.com/blog/editorials/archives/2007/04/rank_has_privil.html) ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/10 "2007-04-24T13:07:02Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] Hmmm. The man’s in critical condition in the hospital. I don’t know what happened to the Trooper, but I vaguely remember the reports on Corzine saying that he died in the crash. [/QUOTE] From today’s [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/24/nyregion/24corzine.html) – “After 10 days in critical condition with severe chest injuries he suffered in a car crash, Gov. Jon S. Corzine was moved out of intensive care late Monday afternoon and upgraded to stable condition, his doctors at Cooper University Hospital here said. The doctors and Mr. Corzine’s aides said he was alert, sitting up in bed and able to chat with friends, staff members and doctors about issues ranging from the schedule for his rehabilitation, which is expected to take months, to the war in Iraq. But he remains on heavy pain medication …” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/11 "2007-04-24T13:22:36Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Ordering another to exceed the speed limit is also highly unlikely. Obviously reckless driving can get you some jail time (can, in many cases it does not, it just results in a huge fine.) [/QUOTE] But even then, that would be limited to the driver. Even in New Jersey, drivers are responsible for their own actions, not those who order them to drive too fast. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/12 "2007-04-24T14:45:56Z")
I think we can summarize the general view here being that Corzine should be treated no differently…i.e., neither better or worse than…the law would treat anyone else in a similar situation. You certainly haven’t provided any evidence that anyone else would face jail time for not wearing a seatbelt or ordering someone else to exceed the speed limit. (The ordering issue is admittedly a bit confusing because clearly not everyone else is the governor, when they ask someone to do something, so it is hard to make an analogy to the average Joe. On the other hand, I imagine there must have been circumstances in which, for example, the CEO of a company ordered his driver to drive faster.) ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/13 "2007-04-24T14:58:53Z")
Is this a serious question? The man’s not out of the hospital. He has 11 broken ribs, a fractured a vertebra, leg and other injuries. He was just taken off the ventilator. I’d say he’s paying a pretty hefty price for not wearing a seat belt. It’s going to make you feel better if he’s slapped with a $20 ticket? ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/14 "2007-04-24T15:09:40Z")
[QUOTE=Caridwen] Is this a serious question? The man’s not out of the hospital. He has 11 broken ribs, a fractured a vertebra, leg and other injuries. He was just taken off the ventilator. I’d say he’s paying a pretty hefty price for not wearing a seat belt. It’s going to make you feel better if he’s slapped with a $20 ticket? [/QUOTE] Having grown up in the Garden State, I can assure you that if Joe Schmuck, the non-governor, suffered the same injuries while riding in a car without a seatbelt, his $20 ticket would be waiting for him when he got home. Why should Corzine be treated any differently? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/15 "2007-04-24T15:12:37Z")
I have a big problem with Corzine’s behavior-and I think he should be given extra punishment (beyond what an average person should). To begin with, he is the GOVERNOR-he should set an example of adherence to the laws (that he helped pass). Ordering a law enforcement officer top BREAK THE LAW is a very bad example to set. The fact that the state trooper chose to obey an illegal order is no defence-he should lose his job over this. Corzine destroyed state property (through willfull negligence). he should pay (out of his own pocket), for the damage to the state vehicle, for the damage to the guardrail, and for the EMT’s rescue bill. I’m sick and tired of politicians lecturing us on how to live our lives…then they go out and make a great big mess (which we collectively must pay to put right). I’d say-as soon as he recovers, slap him with a $25,000 fine, and 25 days in the clink! ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/16 "2007-04-24T15:17:15Z")
Well then mail him the damn ticket already and stop writing about it in the paper every day. This ticket drama started on the \*\*day \*\* of the accident when he was still unconscious. I don’t think anyone should be treated differently but this ticket drama is beyond silly. ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/17 "2007-04-24T15:18:24Z")
Yea, I know **ralph124c** , think of the children. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/18 "2007-04-24T15:19:42Z")
[QUOTE=Caridwen] Is this a serious question? The man’s not out of the hospital. He has 11 broken ribs, a fractured a vertebra, leg and other injuries. He was just taken off the ventilator. I’d say he’s paying a pretty hefty price for not wearing a seat belt. It’s going to make you feel better if he’s slapped with a $20 ticket? [/QUOTE] Yes, he is paying a hefty price, and I take no joy whatsoever in that. But he is the governor, should be setting an example for the rest of us, and _not_ ticketing him certainly won’t help anything. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/19 "2007-04-24T15:22:37Z")
There’s no legal mechanism, I’m pretty sure, for throwing a guy in jail on what would ordinarily be a $20 ticket. He deserves the ticket, and some editorials saying he was wrong to order the driver to go faster (if that was true). The driver should be disciplined. **ralph214c** , how many people do you expect to say “the Governor didn’t wear a seatbelt, so I won’t either?” Not only that, but let’s not pretend all of a sudden that drivers ordinarily drive the speed limit on a parkway. ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438/20 "2007-04-24T15:23:07Z")
Who said he shouldn’t get a ticket? Maybe there are more important things to worry about this minute like whether the man will recover and be able to govern. Unless I’m totally out of the loop and the cops all run to the hospital to personally deliver a $20 ticket. Who said he hasn’t gotten one? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-gov-corzine-be-jailed-for-ignoring-laws/401438.md?page=2)