# Should Hawaii look for Ann Soetoro's delivery records? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637 "2010-12-28T19:54:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/41 "2010-12-29T03:53:19Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > To be fair, I don’t know anything about the “Research 2000” polling firm, and those numbers do seem inflated to me. Research 2000 was exposed as having defrauded its clients by using false data on polls earlier this year. Markos Moulitsas (Daily Kos) is in the process of [suing them](http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2010/06/daily_kos_to_su.php) for fraud. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/42 "2010-12-29T03:53:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Anyone else wanna bet that even IF the LFBC was released, the Birthers STILL wouldn’t let it go? Nope. They’d probably just say, “Well, the doctor’s signature isn’t printed with the blood of virgins, so it doesn’t count.” ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/43 "2010-12-29T03:57:25Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Research 2000 was exposed as having defrauded its clients by using false data on polls earlier this year. Markos Moulitsas (Daily Kos) is in the process of [suing them](http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2010/06/daily_kos_to_su.php) for fraud. Thanks. I was skeptical of those numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Alienhand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8edcca/32.png) [@Alienhand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alienhand)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/44 "2010-12-29T04:01:14Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Question from the Foreign Observer’s gallery: How prevalent, really, is the belief that Mr. Obama was born somewhere outside the US? One assumes “Not Very” but it does seem to keep getting discussed here on the boards (along with the people who hold said belief). The number is usually low 20s to high 20s depending the polling firm, question phrasing, etc. [CNN poll from 8/2010](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/04/cnn-poll-quarter-doubt-president-was-born-in-u-s/?fbid=S7VzajvA2O3) 27% [NYT/CBS 4/2010](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/21/obama-and-the-birthers-in-the-latest-poll/) 20% ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/45 "2010-12-29T04:06:46Z")
> [@Alienhand](#): > > The number is usually low 20s to high 20s depending the polling firm, question phrasing, etc. > > [CNN poll from 8/2010](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/04/cnn-poll-quarter-doubt-president-was-born-in-u-s/?fbid=S7VzajvA2O3) 27% > [NYT/CBS 4/2010](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/21/obama-and-the-birthers-in-the-latest-poll/) 20% That’s… frightening, for want of a better term. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/46 "2010-12-29T04:24:08Z")
I don’t find it that surprising - it was brought up often in legitimate forums and by people who pass for sane that someone who hasn’t actually bothered to look in to the question could have doubts - which I think is the standard used to reach the 20% number. Hell, the way Fox used to beat on it (do they (in particular Beck) still?) is going to put doubt in a lot of people’s minds, since I know they never came back and said “Nevermind, he really is a citizen”. Joe ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/47 "2010-12-29T04:43:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I see no upside to this. Only two things could happen: > 2. The records are lost. The OP’s bizarre faith in hospital records aside, I can assure you all that there is an excellent chance the records are destroyed, lost, eaten by silverfish or God knows what else. And that would drive the conpsiracy loons absolutely around the bend. Well…they cant ALL!!! be lost, can they? I mean, that would really be impossible. Some records must exist somewhere, there are too many records in too many places kept by too many different people … his school and college records, the name of the hospital and the attending physician, long form birth certificate, parents marriage and divorce records, passport and visa records, social security records, selective service records, disbarrment records of Illinois, et al, 1 or 2 missing hospital records would not mean a thing to anyone compared to all else that would, could, be released as a fulfillment of his long standing famous promise of being: \*\* the most transparent president in history.\*\* …and BTW, I worked in several hospitals during my long career,and I know for a fact that the hospitals keep ALL their old patient records FOREVER!! ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/48 "2010-12-29T04:48:19Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Thanks. I was skeptical of those numbers. You should go by the _only_ poll that really matters, World Net Daily’s internet poll [http://forums.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=485&pollShowResults=1](http://forums.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=485&pollShowResults=1) 72% say Kenya, less than 1% say Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/49 "2010-12-29T04:50:29Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Well…they cant ALL!!! be lost, can they? > > I mean, that would really be impossible. Some records must exist somewhere, there are too many records in too many places kept by too many different people … his school and college records, the name of the hospital and the attending physician, long form birth certificate, parents marriage and divorce records, passport and visa records, social security records, selective service records, disbarrment records of Illinois, et al, > > 1 or 2 missing hospital records would not mean a thing to anyone compared to all else that would, could, be released as a fulfillment of his long standing famous promise of being: \*\* the most transparent president in history.\*\* > > …and BTW, I worked in several hospitals during my long career,and I know for a fact that the hospitals keep ALL their old patient records FOREVER!! You do realize that the only people who really look foolish on this subject to anyone with half a brain and some minor connection to reality are the birthers, don’t you? He has given every piece of evidence that anyone has to give to prove their birthplace and citizenship. He’s shown every piece of evidence he has to show to get a freaking PASSPORT, for god’s sake! He’s been triple-checked-out for Top Secret Presidential security clearance, I’m sure (and I’m sure it was done BEFORE the election (and probably the primaries), so if there WERE anything that would prevent clearance, it would have been reported and he’d have been deemed ineligible then). The only reason we’re still having this conversation at all is because 20-odd percent of this country went absolutely batshit insane on Nov 2, 2008. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/50 "2010-12-29T04:51:53Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Well…they cant ALL!!! be lost, can they? > > I mean, that would really be impossible. Some records must exist somewhere, there are too many records in too many places kept by too many different people … his school and college records, the name of the hospital and the attending physician, long form birth certificate, parents marriage and divorce records, passport and visa records, social security records, selective service records, disbarrment records of Illinois, et al, > > 1 or 2 missing hospital records would not mean a thing to anyone compared to all else that would, could, be released as a fulfillment of his long standing famous promise of being: \*\* the most transparent president in history.\*\* > > …and BTW, I worked in several hospitals during my long career,and I know for a fact that the hospitals keep ALL their old patient records FOREVER!! No. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/51 "2010-12-29T05:08:52Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > 1 or 2 missing hospital records would not mean a thing to anyone compared to all else that would, could, be released as a fulfillment of his long standing famous promise of being: \*\* the most transparent president in history.\*\* Obama has no standing to release these records. He has released the records he has access to. There’s more than enough evidence to convince any reasonable person he was born in Hawaii. What does this have to do with transparency? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/52 "2010-12-29T05:20:04Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > BTW, I worked in several hospitals during my long career,and I know for a fact that the hospitals keep ALL their old patient records FOREVER!! You’re mistaken. Were you a janitor or something equally out of the records loop? In Hawaii they evidentially are required to keep info for[25 years after a minor turns 18](http://ihcrp.georgetown.edu/privacy/stateguides/hi/higuide2.html). I have serious doubts you actually know of anywhere where it is required forever. Of course, I’m willing to be shown where that is the case. But in any case it isn’t the reality in Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/53 "2010-12-29T06:38:50Z")
Like I noted earlier, many conservatives are in a state of complete and adamant certainty that President Obama is a Natural Born Citizen. They hold that their conservative credentials require them put an argument they know to be untrue. That’s simply how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/54 "2010-12-29T07:14:19Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Chris Matthews is right. > > I think it is time to put an end to this argument and controversy once and for all. > > Just release the complete detailed long form birth certificate with the doctor’s signature and hospital name, also release the hospital patient records, and release all the school and passport records and then we dont need to discuss this anymore. We already don’t need to discuss this. We never have. He’s an American, and he’s the president. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/55 "2010-12-29T07:19:22Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Well…they cant ALL!!! be lost, can they? > > …and BTW, I worked in several hospitals during my long career,and I know for a fact that the hospitals keep ALL their old patient records FOREVER!! Nope. There’s not enough room. They do try to notify the patient before records are destroyed. But if they can’t find them or they don’t respond, and most of them don’t, the records are destroyed. I forget how long it is–longer for a minor child, not really all that long for an adult. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/56 "2010-12-29T09:34:14Z")
What does it matter? Hawaii was part of Kenya back then. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/57 "2010-12-29T10:47:55Z")
IMNSHO, so-called “birthers” are really racists in disguise. It’s not PC these days to openly hate someone for being black. So they find another issue that’s publicly acceptable. As many have already said, nothing will satisfy the birthers. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/58 "2010-12-29T13:25:38Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > That’s what I was going to say. Soetoro was her second husband’s name, who she married four years after Barack Obama was born. > > These birthers have been fed so much misinformation that they can’t even keep the conspiracy theories straight anymore. I suspect the “birthers” (of whom, as a foreign born person, I am not one) have as little information as their detractors hope they have. As to this silly distraction about her name, that’s available on any biographical site for her. It’s a bit less clumsy to refer to her by Ann Dunham Soetoro (as I did in the OP) rather than to include her entire name history (which is entirely unrelated to the issue at hand), and the pretense that such a shorthand is somehow indicative of a lack of information or support for a “conspiracy theory” is kind of lame, Lamar. As far as I can tell ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/59 "2010-12-29T13:45:47Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You do realize that the only people who really look foolish on this subject to anyone with half a brain and some minor connection to reality are the birthers, don’t you? I don’t know much about this topic and don’t follow it. Nor have I looked into the claims of the birthers. What I’d like to focus on is Governor Abercrombie’s “help” here. It seems to me he’s the one feeding the birther fire, and that’s what perked my interest. I work in the Medical field, and part of my role involves medical records. Since there are a limited number of candidate hospitals (or, perhaps, the Governor remembers which one it was), it is in fact a simple task to find hospital records covering the period of time the President was born. If they exist for no-one (say, for instance, all the admitting log books and inpatient records are lost for every patient), end of story. But if the logbooks exist and there is no entry for Ann Dunham (or some other candidate patient of the right age during the right time period) then a reasonable inference can be drawn that Ann Dunham did not give birth in Hawaii during the time period at hand. From my perspective (and I’ve delivered babies as well as had some of my own), a birth certificate of any kind is not a substantive document. On the other hand, hospital records would be incontrovertible proof and basically non-forgeable. If Mr Abercrombie wants to obtain all available records, that’s what he needs to look for. I believe the position of the birthers is that, since it’s an easily researchable thing and since there is no effort to do so, their theory gains more credibility if those claiming a Hawaiian birth refuse to even look. What surprised me is Governor Abercrombie wanting to research the topic. Is he a secret birther? Or does he think the evidence actually exists? Or does he at least think it’s a great idea to go looking? Is it a great idea? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/60 "2010-12-29T13:47:33Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I suspect the “birthers” (of whom, as a foreign born person, I am not one) have as little information as their detractors hope they have. l Apologies for the truncated post. Got distracted. Should say… do not have as little information… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637.md?page=4)