# Should Hawaii look for Ann Soetoro's delivery records? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637 "2010-12-28T19:54:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/61 "2010-12-29T14:48:53Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > …and BTW, I worked in several hospitals during my long career,and I know for a fact that the hospitals keep ALL their old patient records FOREVER!! No you didn’t, and no you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/62 "2010-12-29T14:51:12Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I suspect the “birthers” (of whom, as a foreign born person, I am not one) have as little information as their detractors hope they have. As to this silly distraction about her name, that’s available on any biographical site for her. > > It’s a bit less clumsy to refer to her by Ann Dunham Soetoro (as I did in the OP) rather than to include her entire name history (which is entirely unrelated to the issue at hand), and the pretense that such a shorthand is somehow indicative of a lack of information or support for a “conspiracy theory” is kind of lame, Lamar. > > As far as I can tell :dubious: “Barry Soetoro” is a standard Birthers’ insult-name for Obama. Don’t try to tell us you never noticed that before. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/63 "2010-12-29T14:52:30Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > IMNSHO, so-called “birthers” are really racists in disguise. No, not really. Not so much as a comical glasses-nose-and-mustache disguise. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/64 "2010-12-29T15:01:29Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Well…they cant ALL!!! be lost, can they? > > I mean, that would really be impossible. Some records must exist somewhere, there are too many records in too many places kept by too many different people … his school and college records, the name of the hospital and the attending physician, long form birth certificate, parents marriage and divorce records, passport and visa records, social security records, selective service records, disbarrment records of Illinois, et al, Well, of course they’re not all lost. It’s just that the records that have been shown just aren’t fucking good enough for the crazies. I’d be surprised if the average birther could round up as much evidence that he or she was born in the US as has already been released for Obama. This proposal by the governor is a complete waste of time; an attempt to prove what has already been proven in an effort to convince the unconvinceable. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/65 "2010-12-29T15:03:01Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > I don’t find it that surprising - it was brought up often in legitimate forums and by people who pass for sane that someone who hasn’t actually bothered to look in to the question could have doubts - which I think is the standard used to reach the 20% number. > > Hell, the way Fox used to beat on it (do they (in particular Beck) still?) is going to put doubt in a lot of people’s minds, since I know they never came back and said “Nevermind, he really is a citizen”. > > Joe To be fair, some of the more prominent Fox personalities, including Beck, have gone out of their way to say they believe Obama is a natural born citizen, though they’ll often follow it up by saying something like “But, people are asking questions?” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/66 "2010-12-29T15:06:18Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Well…they cant ALL!!! be lost, can they? > > I mean, that would really be impossible. Some records must exist somewhere, there are too many records in too many places kept by too many different people … his school and college records, the name of the hospital and the attending physician, long form birth certificate, parents marriage and divorce records, passport and visa records, social security records, selective service records, disbarrment records of Illinois, et al, > > 1 or 2 missing hospital records would not mean a thing to anyone compared to all else that would, could, be released as a fulfillment of his long standing famous promise of being: \*\* the most transparent president in history.\*\* > > …and BTW, I worked in several hospitals during my long career,and I know for a fact that the hospitals keep ALL their old patient records FOREVER!! And why, pray tell, should anyone make any effort to produce documents to a bunch of nutcase ultra partisans who have already stated that they will cast doubts and aspersions on any document anyone produces? Birther cranks already have the goalposts on a rocket sled and have a lighter inches away from the fuse. I’d rather just let the birther nutcases bleat and scream their hystrerical cries all the way into the crazy box in the public’s eyes. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/67 "2010-12-29T15:06:56Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > I’d be surprised if the average birther could round up as much evidence that he or she was born in the US as has already been released for Obama. This proposal by the governor is a complete waste of time; an attempt to prove what has already been proven in an effort to convince the unconvinceable. Exactly. I’m sure I have a long form certificate festering away in some county clerk’s office, but I’ve never seen it. The only copies I have in my possession are the embossed certificates that say when and where I was born, who my parents are and no other details, save for the signature of the county health officer. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/68 "2010-12-29T15:22:20Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Well…they cant ALL!!! be lost, can they? First of all, they most certainly can all be lost. We’re talking about records from 1961. The records are all paper, obviously, and it’s quite plausible that they could have simply been destroyed to make room - there is no rule that says a hospital has to keep such old records, and lots of reason to get rid of them. They could have been wrecked in an accident. They could have been destroyed by a leak in the roof. They could simply be lost in the bowels of hospital administration. You’ve never seen a hospital lose a record? Come on. Hospitals screw up which leg’s suppoed to be amputated; they can sure as hell lose a 49-year-old admittal sheet. I’m 39. If I walked into the hospital I was born in and asked to see the records, they’d tell me to go to hell. If I insisted, they’d tell me it was impossible. And if I got a court order I wouldn’t bet a wooden nickel they’d be able to find them. I’ve seen that same hospital lose records in a _day_. Secondly, throwing exclamation points into the middle of a sentence doesn’t make it more convincing. Thirdly, why should they bother? Obama has a birth certificate, a passport, and extensive circumstantial evidence of his birth in Hawaii, such as newspaper announcements and eyewitnesses. Barack Obama’s citizenship is more conclusively proven than 99% of living Americans today. Nothing he produces will convince the Birthers he was born in Hawaii. There is no hospital record, no peice of paper, nothing he could produce that would sway their insane minds. > [@](#): > > I mean, that would really be impossible. Some records must exist somewhere, there are too many records in too many places kept by too many different people … his school and college records… What do his school records have to do with anything? And has anyone questioned his records? We know where he has degrees from, that being a matter of public record. Do you really give a shit how he did in math in eighth grade? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/69 "2010-12-29T15:24:19Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I suspect the “birthers” (of whom, as a foreign born person, I am not one) have as little information as their detractors hope they have. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Apologies for the truncated post. Got distracted. > Should say… do not have as little information… The original version made more sense. There is plenty of evidence he was born in Hawaii and none that he wasn’t. There are alternate explanations for the documents that say he was born in Hawaii, but no evidence that any alternative explanation is called for. The bottom line is that if you take the political and racial issues out of this case, you have a birth certificate and two newspaper announcements that say he was born in Hawaii. And on the other hand, you have some people saying he was born 11,000 miles away. Documents are not going to solve this. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/70 "2010-12-29T15:48:49Z")
And of course records can all be destroyed. A lot of people born in San Francisco before 1906 had their records lost when City Hall burned in the fires that followed the earthquake. To qualify for Medicare and Social Security and so on they had to rely on other documents, like baptismal records from a church, or newspaper clippings that may have been saved. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/71 "2010-12-29T15:58:43Z")
I think that the only thing that should be released at this point, is a gilt-edged, framed copy of Shut The Fuck Up. On the other hand, it does warm the icy cockles of my heart to witness these brainless birthers going off the rails every time someone mentions the words “Long Form Birth Certificate,” like they wouldn’t immediately demand the Extra Long Form Birth Certificate In Triplicate With Roumalade Sauce And Flames Painted On The Side. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/72 "2010-12-29T16:04:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The original version made more sense. There is plenty of evidence he was born in Hawaii and none that he wasn’t. There are alternate explanations for the documents that say he was born in Hawaii, but no evidence that any alternative explanation is called for. The bottom line is that if you take the political and racial issues out of this case, you have a birth certificate and two newspaper announcements that say he was born in Hawaii. And on the other hand, you have some people saying he was born 11,000 miles away. Documents are not going to solve this. I could see, through some insanely vast conspiracy, that a birth certificate might be faked. ( Not that I believe it, just playing insane person’s advocate). Since no one has seen the the actual thing until this all came up, it’s just possible someone snuck in a forgery.( Yeah right, like that’s even in the realm of reality.:rolleyes:) How the _hell_ do you fake numerous copies of two different newspaper announcements? Not just the original form at the paper but actual copies of the paper itself? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/73 "2010-12-29T16:27:22Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > How the _hell_ do you fake numerous copies of two different newspaper announcements? Not just the original form at the paper but actual copies of the paper itself? Well, you **can’t** fake those, of course not, that would be ridiculous. But you **can** phone them in from Kenya. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/74 "2010-12-29T16:30:05Z")
What’s the old saw about being unable to reason people out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into? Racists want Obama not to be president and so they cast about for reasons why he’s illegitimate. It’s exactly like trying to convince a KKK member that he should be okay with his daughter marrying a black man. Whatever reasons he says out loud could be overcome; it’s the reasons he holds in his heart that can’t be reasoned away. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/75 "2010-12-29T18:29:03Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > From my perspective (and I’ve delivered babies as well as had some of my own), a birth certificate of any kind is not a substantive document. On the other hand, hospital records would be incontrovertible proof and basically non-forgeable. If Mr Abercrombie wants to obtain all available records, that’s what he needs to look for. > > I believe the position of the birthers is that, since it’s an easily researchable thing and since there is no effort to do so, their theory gains more credibility if those claiming a Hawaiian birth refuse to even look. Where do **you** believe Barack Obama was born? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/76 "2010-12-29T18:37:24Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > Where do **you** believe Barack Obama was born? It’s so complicated. On the one hand, if they argue Obama was born in Kenya, they don’t have to admit he’s actually the president. On the other hand, if it’s all a scheme, they have to admit an… AFRICAN pulled one over on the superior intelligence of white people. What a dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/77 "2010-12-29T18:50:19Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > How the _hell_ do you fake numerous copies of two different newspaper announcements? Not just the original form at the paper but actual copies of the paper itself? I made this same point to a hard-core birther once…She responded that the Obama presidency is the culmination of a long-running communist conspiracy to take over the U.S. dating back to 1961. The birth notices were carefully planted in the papers back then by agents. The immaculate black baby born to Kenyan/communist/muslim parents was then groomed all his life for the grand moment when he would (illegally) gain the presidency and implement the communist program to destroy America from within. This woman was dead serious. Honestly…how do you argue with people like that? They live within an envelope of alternative reality. These people vote, and teach (the woman in question is a high-school guidance counsellor) and evangelize their POV every chance they get. They’re too bloody dangerous to ignore, and they certainly can’t be educated. The only reasonable way to deal with that ilk would be to just shoot 'em on sight, but the law don’t allow it. SS ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/78 "2010-12-29T18:56:30Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Well, of course they’re not all lost. It’s just that the records that have been shown just aren’t fucking good enough for the crazies. > > I’d be surprised if the average birther could round up as much evidence that he or she was born in the US as has already been released for Obama. This proposal by the governor is a complete waste of time; an attempt to prove what has already been proven in an effort to convince the unconvinceable. I have a copy of the hospital bill from when I was born, 10 years before Obama. (My father is a pack rat.) it could be easily forged, or it would be easy to claim it was forged. I think we all know that appeasement never works, so it is time to just say no to the crazies. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/79 "2010-12-29T19:03:10Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > I made this same point to a hard-core birther once…She responded that the Obama presidency is the culmination of a long-running communist conspiracy to take over the U.S. dating back to 1961. The birth notices were carefully planted in the papers back then by agents. The immaculate black baby born to Kenyan/communist/muslim parents was then groomed all his life for the grand moment when he would (illegally) gain the presidency and implement the communist program to destroy America from within. :rolleyes::smack: \< imagine a line of these things heading off to infinity. That does prove the point that NOTHING will convince these idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/80 "2010-12-29T19:26:03Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > I made this same point to a hard-core birther once…She responded that the Obama presidency is the culmination of a long-running communist conspiracy to take over the U.S. dating back to 1961. If that story wasn’t ridiculous enough on its own, it occurs to me that a lot of these idiots probably think Kenya was a communist country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637.md?page=5)