# Should Hawaii look for Ann Soetoro's delivery records? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637 "2010-12-28T19:54:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/81 "2010-12-29T19:27:16Z")
What I find quite humorous about the birthers is that basically they are arguing for a Joe Biden Presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/82 "2010-12-29T19:43:21Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > From my perspective (and I’ve delivered babies as well as had some of my own), a birth certificate of any kind is not a substantive document. On the other hand, hospital records would be incontrovertible proof and basically non-forgeable. Can’t argue with this logic. Seriously, you can’t argue with it. There are no words that can possibly change the mind of a person who seriously believes that a government issued document is not substantive, but dusty, minimally secured paper records from 50 years ago are incontrovertible and non-forgable. Can’t find the record, clearly he was born in Kenya. It couldn’t have been that an Obama hater snuck into the sub-sub-sub basement and took the record. Impossible, unthinkable, it’s much more likely that his mom secretly traveled to Kenya late in her pregnancy to ensure her baby was born there instead of in the US, then planted newspaper announcements to make it SEEM like he was born in Hawaii, just in case he tried to get the one job in the entire world that requires natural born US citizenship. She’s a frickin’ criminal mastermind. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/83 "2010-12-29T19:47:41Z")
The Vice Presidency also requires US citizenship, smart guy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/84 "2010-12-29T20:09:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If that story wasn’t ridiculous enough on its own, it occurs to me that a lot of these idiots probably think Kenya was a communist country. Also, if you wanted to groom someone to be president of the United States, especially in 1961, why the hell would you name them Barack Hussein Obama, instead of, say, Joe Smith or some other stereotypically-sounding “all-American” name. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/85 "2010-12-29T20:18:00Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > They’re too bloody dangerous to ignore, and they certainly can’t be educated. The only reasonable way to deal with that ilk would be to just shoot 'em on sight, but the law don’t allow it. > SS Advocating murder as a solution to a political issue simply contributes to the debasement of civil political discourse. With this post, you’re part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/86 "2010-12-29T20:24:16Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > From my perspective (and I’ve delivered babies as well as had some of my own), a birth certificate of any kind is not a substantive document. On the other hand, hospital records would be incontrovertible proof and basically non-forgeable. If Mr Abercrombie wants to obtain all available records, that’s what he needs to look for. I don’t know about you, but more than once in my life i’ve had to prove citizenship, for a passport, for work, for a diver’s license, and I have always done it with my birth certificate, and never done it with hospital records. I can’t think of anything more substantive. I may use my passport for re-entry to the US as a citizen, but it is based on my birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/87 "2010-12-29T20:37:59Z")
Birth certificate not a substantive document? Yeesh! I think that’s what I used to get a passport, among other things. It’s the ultimate substantive document. No one has ever asked for hospital records of my kids when I’ve enrolled them in school, got them passports, etc. They’ve asked for the birth certificate in ALL cases. Not everyone is born in a hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/88 "2010-12-29T20:40:54Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > She’s a frickin’ criminal mastermind. Well she did spend six years in evil anthropology school. > [@joebuck20](#): > > Also, if you wanted to groom someone to be president of the United States, especially in 1961, why the hell would you name them Barack Hussein Obama, instead of, say, Joe Smith or some other stereotypically-sounding “all-American” name. That’s how these things work. Any purportedly questionable document or event is evidence of the crime, and any evidence _against_ the theory is just evidence for the coverup. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/89 "2010-12-29T20:57:00Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Advocating murder as a solution to a political issue simply contributes to the debasement of civil political discourse. With this post, you’re part of the problem. At ease, **Northern Piper** , I do but jest. Hmmm…[checks keyboard]…there oughta be some way to indicate a tongue-in-cheek utterance…Oh wait, there is!..:);)😃 \* \*I’ll remember to add the smilies next time ETA: I think the debasement of civil political discourse is pretty well a done deal anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/90 "2010-12-29T20:59:04Z")
I don’t find comments about shooting people for their political opinions to be funny, no matter how many smilies are attached. They poison civil discourse, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/91 "2010-12-29T21:01:16Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I don’t find comments about shooting people for their political opinions to be funny, no matter how many smilies are attached. They poison civil discourse, in my opinion. Nazis had political opinions too. There should be a Godwin smiley with a Hitler mustache. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/92 "2010-12-29T21:01:24Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Also, if you wanted to groom someone to be president of the United States, especially in 1961, why the hell would you name them Barack Hussein Obama, instead of, say, Joe Smith or some other stereotypically-sounding “all-American” name. Not only that, you’d start with a white baby. Who in their right mind, in _1961_, would think a half black baby would have a good shot at becoming President someday? It isn’t like there were no white communists. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/93 "2010-12-29T21:04:29Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Not only that, you’d start with a white baby. Who in their right mind, in _1961_, would think a half black baby would have a good shot at becoming President someday? It isn’t like there were no white communists. But don’t you see? This is why the evil, commie libs have been working to reduce racism. It’s all a part of their plan. 1. Civil rights. 2. Black president. 3. Government takes everything from the God-fearing capitalist whites. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/94 "2010-12-29T21:09:53Z")
They dyed Kennedy [Black](http://images.greencine.com/images/article/bubba-jfk.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/95 "2010-12-29T21:15:28Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > They dyed Kennedy [Black](http://images.greencine.com/images/article/bubba-jfk.jpg). Not to continue a hijack but… great movie! ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/96 "2010-12-29T21:16:30Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I suspect the “birthers” (of whom, as a foreign born person, I am not one) This makes no sense. I am a foreign born person as well and I am free to believe any stupid thing I want. > [@](#): > > have as little information as their detractors hope they have. As to this silly distraction about her name, that’s available on any biographical site for her. > > It’s a bit less clumsy to refer to her by Ann Dunham Soetoro (as I did in the OP) rather than to include her entire name history (which is entirely unrelated to the issue at hand), and the pretense that such a shorthand is somehow indicative of a lack of information or support for a “conspiracy theory” is kind of lame, Lamar. > > As far as I can tell Your entire OP is support for a conspiracy theory, your attempts to walk it back notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/97 "2010-12-29T22:20:49Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Also, if you wanted to groom someone to be president of the United States, especially in 1961, why the hell would you name them Barack Hussein Obama, instead of, say, Joe Smith or some other stereotypically-sounding “all-American” name. Not to mention the logic of having their agent deliberately born in Kenya in the first place. Probably something like “they wanted to make sure he wouldn’t feel any loyalty at all to America,” as if it would make a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/98 "2010-12-30T04:19:34Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Birth certificate not a substantive document? Yeesh! I think that’s what I used to get a passport, among other things. It’s the ultimate substantive document. > > No one has ever asked for hospital records of my kids when I’ve enrolled them in school, got them passports, etc. They’ve asked for the birth certificate in ALL cases. Not everyone is born in a hospital. It’s my position that if a birth certificate exists for President Obama–and from what little I know, it has been produced–the legal issue is over. He is a natural-born US citizen. The thing that makes him that is that birth certificate. It wouldn’t matter whether or not the document itself was created under some sort of shady circumstances. What defines you legally as a US citizen is that document. That’s not what I posted the OP for. I don’t care about that debate. From what I understood from the article, Governor Abercrombie wants to get to the bottom of the whole documentation issue by researching and producing whatever is out there. That means looking at hospital records. I realize that in the anxiety to mock any potential “birther” on a liberal board like this, there is this default assumption that an “official” birth certificate is just about as strong evidence as you can get. In point of fact this is a feeble assumption. It’s an assumption most recently ridiculed when there was a debate over the age of a Chinese gymnast. It’s really the hospital records of a mother confined for delivery that constitute solid birth proof of an individual claiming to be born in a hospital. So my observation is that the Governor is taking a risk essentially inviting that those records be opened up. If all of the admit logs for a particular date range at all candidate hospitals show an unbroken string of admitted patients and Ann Dunham (or whatever name is appropriate is not there), then she did not deliver a baby at those hospitals, regardless of what the newspaper said. A patient admitted to a hospital for delivery generates dozens of pages of records of various sorts. Those sorts of records would be impossible to forge. If they exist for every other patient but not an Ann Dunham, it’s the birth certificate (essentially a minor clerical function in the hands of a minor clerk) that would be considered incorrect by anyone who understands the difference between the two types of records. It’s true you only need a “birth certificate” if you are applying for a passport. It’s true the birth certificate establishes your legal birth. It’s just not a very persuasive document compared with hospital records, and so it seems to me the Governor needs to be pretty sure he’s gonna find what he thinks he’s gonna find before he opens up a process which could settle the actual issue. At issue for birthers is not whether or not President Obama has a birth certificate. It’s whether or not he was born in Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/99 "2010-12-30T04:36:54Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > It’s my position that if a birth certificate exists for President Obama–and from what little I know, it has been produced–the legal issue is over. It has. In 2008. That’s what started this mess. Obama posted a copy of his birth certificate online during the campaign because a rumor had popped up that his middle name was Mohammed. So he put the birth certificate online. Next thing you know, there’s a cottage industry of people coming up with frivolous complaints about the birth certificate - it’s a “short form,” the seal isn’t raised, some numbers were blacked out, and other such idiocy. > [@](#): > > I realize that in the anxiety to mock any potential “birther” on a liberal board like this It’s not that this is a liberal board. It’s that the fact of this matter were clear ages ago, and people around here tend to jump on people who ignore facts the way the birthers do. > [@](#): > > It’s really the hospital records of a mother confined for delivery that constitute solid birth proof of an individual claiming to be born in a hospital. If you say so. The birth certificate is good enough for most real-world purposes, and there is no reason Obama needs to be subjected to greater scrutiny. > [@](#): > > So my observation is that the Governor is taking a risk essentially inviting that those records be opened up. There’s no risk. But there is also no point. No piece of paper will deter these people. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637/100 "2010-12-30T04:37:26Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > That’s not what I posted the OP for. I don’t care about that debate. From what I understood from the article, Governor Abercrombie wants to get to the bottom of the whole documentation issue by researching and producing whatever is out there. That means looking at hospital records. That’s not my understanding. I have a birth certificate reissued by Maryland in 2001. It is very similar, almost identical, to the birth certificate from Hawaii that Obama offered during the campaign; no hospital, no doctor, and so on. I also have in my possession an uncertified copy of my original handwritten birth certificate that has far more information. I assume that Maryland based my reissued birth certificate on that original. Now does Maryland still have all that information? I don’t know. Did they computerize their birth certificate database to hold only the information needed to provide my reissued birth certificate? I don’t know. I have to assume that the governor is only referring to data that is in the possession of the state. He has no legal ability to demand hospital records. If the state still has a physical copy of the 1961 birth certificate, that’s what he’s looking for. If that physical copy was destroyed after the information desired to be retained was transferred into a computer database, he won’t find it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-hawaii-look-for-ann-soetoros-delivery-records/565637.md?page=6)