# Should he clean her clock? \[Obama vs. Palin in debates\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169 "2010-11-19T01:20:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/41 "2010-11-19T06:07:16Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > This presumes that Palin can survive the primaries and become the nominee. The other candidates will be all over her for quitting the governorship and for her lack of experience. Perhaps the initial question should be whether or not Newt Gingrich should pull his punches or clean her clock. Gingrich would not be a tough person to spar with. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/42 "2010-11-19T06:12:44Z")
Actually Gingrich is pretty bright – morally repugnant, but not an idiot. He’s a very facile liar. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/43 "2010-11-19T06:27:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes but so far the resume doesn’t read well. Palin on the the other hand, is getting paid to rally crowds and has a better track record getting people elected. She’s sharpening her speaking skills while he continues to use teleprompters. She is literally paid to practice. First of all, which people are you referring to her getting elected? The one person who it was her job to get elected failed. And oh, yeah, Obama won that race. Second of all, when you’re watching those speeches by assorted talking heads proclaiming how Obama’s helpless without a teleprompter… Look to the speaker’s left and right. See those clear glass plates tilted towards them on each side? Do you know what those are? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/44 "2010-11-19T06:28:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s true she’s managed to promote herself very well or she wouldn’t be where she is. She’s able to market herself regardless of what she is saying or even how well she is saying it, because she’s not a good speaker by any measure. Really? You don’t recall her speech at the Republican convention, which electrified darned near everyone and had pundits saying it was one of the best political speeches in years, maybe decades? This was before her other gaffes and clear limitations gave her enemies ammo to marginalize her, so the speech was able to stand on its own without being tarnished by the other qualities of the person. Taken on its own, it was pretty amazing. Palin is a conundrum. She’s supposedly stupid (and even I agree that she comes across that way a lot of the time), but at the same time she keeps besting her opponents and gaining in stature and power. After the election, everyone assumed she was finished. Then she suddenly rose to the height of Republican power, establishing herself as a kingmaker and a fundraising powerhouse. She’s now sitting in the catbird seat of the right. She’s got the Tea Party eating out of her hand. She’s got about 40 allies in the congress who she helped get elected. I don’t know how she’s doing it, or exactly what her skill is, but it’s clear she’s doing something right. Perhaps her best weapon is her enemies, who are so enraged and over-the-top in their hatred of her that they push everyone else into her corner. They claim she is so stupid and so inept as a speaker and debater that they help set the bar so low that she can skip over it. That’s what happened in the Palin/Biden debate - she turned in a so-so performance, but the expectations for her were set so low by her enemies that by even just holding her own with Biden she came out as the winner. And when the liberal attack machine went after her full force in Alaska, they played right into her hands. They gave her a rationale for quitting that would actually work, giving her the freedom to disconnect herself from the state and move into federal politics and travel the lower 48 fundraising. It also insulated her from having to make tough decisions as governor that might bite her in the ass in a Presidential election. She’s now in a position where she doesn’t have to compromise, make tough choices, or expose herself to failure. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/45 "2010-11-19T06:31:21Z")
I would like to note that while Magiver is blindly parroting the Republican talking point about Obama and the teleprompter, he isn’t factoring in the meeting where [the President made the entire mass of House Republicans look like retarded children](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1-jasxb7NY&feature=player_embedded). You’ll note he was speaking off the cuff there. So while Magiver likes to ignorantly promulgate the loony right-wing misinformation about the teleprompter thing, he’s utterly and laughably wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/46 "2010-11-19T06:32:58Z")
That speech was written for her and she read it off a teleprompter, and it wasn’t that good anyway. She doesn’t electrify anybody but a very small, hate-filled angry core of lunatics. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/47 "2010-11-19T06:36:36Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > This presumes that Palin can survive the primaries and become the nominee. The other candidates will be all over her for quitting the governorship and for her lack of experience. Perhaps the initial question should be whether or not Newt Gingrich should pull his punches or clean her clock. The way she’s positioned herself as the spokesperson for the tea party, wronged ‘mama bear’ of her family, and leader of the tea party, she’s made it very difficult for primary challengers. And the way she raises money, she’ll be able out-spend most of them by a huge margin. She’s got the tea party people who can set up the ground game for her, which is very important in primaries. If Palin runs for President (and it’s becoming increasingly clear that she will), I’d give her a 50/50 shot of winning the nomination. Of course, she’s eminently capable of shooting herself in the foot or making major gaffes, so she could also crash and burn. But if she avoids major mistakes, she’s going into the primary season with a huge advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/48 "2010-11-19T06:38:36Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Really? You don’t recall her speech at the Republican convention, which electrified darned near everyone and had pundits saying it was one of the best political speeches in years, maybe decades? > > This was before her other gaffes and clear limitations gave her enemies ammo to marginalize her, so the speech was able to stand on its own without being tarnished by the other qualities of the person. Taken on its own, it was pretty amazing. > > Palin is a conundrum. She’s supposedly stupid (and even I agree that she comes across that way a lot of the time), but at the same time she keeps besting her opponents and gaining in stature and power. After the election, everyone assumed she was finished. Then she suddenly rose to the height of Republican power, establishing herself as a kingmaker and a fundraising powerhouse. > > She’s now sitting in the catbird seat of the right. She’s got the Tea Party eating out of her hand. She’s got about 40 allies in the congress who she helped get elected. > > I don’t know how she’s doing it, or exactly what her skill is, but it’s clear she’s doing something right. > > Perhaps her best weapon is her enemies, who are so enraged and over-the-top in their hatred of her that they push everyone else into her corner. They claim she is so stupid and so inept as a speaker and debater that they help set the bar so low that she can skip over it. That’s what happened in the Palin/Biden debate - she turned in a so-so performance, but the expectations for her were set so low by her enemies that by even just holding her own with Biden she came out as the winner. > > And when the liberal attack machine went after her full force in Alaska, they played right into her hands. They gave her a rationale for quitting that would actually work, giving her the freedom to disconnect herself from the state and move into federal politics and travel the lower 48 fundraising. It also insulated her from having to make tough decisions as governor that might bite her in the ass in a Presidential election. She’s now in a position where she doesn’t have to compromise, make tough choices, or expose herself to failure. She isn’t Moriarty, she’s a simpleton who’s in the right place. The Tea Party doesn’t care about intelligence, skill or knowledge. They like that she’s a folksy, religious dingbat. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/49 "2010-11-19T06:40:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a woman who during her debate prep had to be told repeatedly (and without success) that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. She thinks that Africa is a country. She thinks that humans and dinosaurs lived together. She thinks that we should have tirned to the Netherlands for help with the oil leak because she heard that story about the kid and the dike. That’s only a smattering. Is that not convincing for you? How about this: “Death Panels.” Remember that? There is something she either understands that she should do, instinctively does, or is too stupid to avoid doing: she says what her supporters want to believe and do believe to be true. I don’t think it is necessarily the third possibility that is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/50 "2010-11-19T06:40:32Z")
Let’s hope. I don’t think we’ll get that lucky, though. When push comes to shove, she doesn’t have the guts to publicly engage with opponents or face questions from the legitimate news media. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/51 "2010-11-19T06:45:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That speech was written for her and she read it off a teleprompter, and it wasn’t that good anyway. She doesn’t electrify anybody but a very small, hate-filled angry core of lunatics. The claim was that she ‘wasn’t a good speaker by any measure’. No one said anything about speechwriting. As for the teleprompter - Obama is so married to his that it goes on the road with him and is used in virtually every speaking engagement he has. Does that make him a bad speaker? She’s a good speaker. Maybe a great speaker. She knows how to work a crowd. In fact, she’s such a good speaker in front of crowd that it may be the one talent she has that has allowed to to rise way above her other limitations. I’m not cheerleading for Palin here. I watched clips of ‘Sarah Palin’s Alaska’, and they were truly cringe-worthy. But it’s crazy to deny the obvious talents she does have, and if you guys continue with the crazy over-the-top hatred and attempts to deny her any ability at all, you’re going to help her win. As John Stewart said last night: “STOP MAKING ME FEEL SYMPATHY FOR THE PALINS!” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/52 "2010-11-19T06:50:02Z")
Actually I guess the current way to express it is to say she has a gift for truthiness. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/53 "2010-11-19T06:58:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’m not cheerleading for Palin here. Yes you are. You’re anthropomorphizing her. Like when someone is convinced their dog is pissing on the floor because he’s upset about missing his favorite TV show. She’s a piece of flotsam floating on a tea-colored wave. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/54 "2010-11-19T07:00:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > She’s a good speaker. Maybe a great speaker. She knows how to work a crowd. I stand a bit outside of all this but my impression is that Obama is impressive to a wide cross section of people including the all important middle, while Palin is ultra impressive _to her base_. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/55 "2010-11-19T07:28:11Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I stand a bit outside of all this but my impression is that Obama is impressive to a wide cross section of people including the all important middle, while Palin is ultra impressive _to her base_. And to folksy type people in general. I know a lot of people who are fairly liberal in their actual ideas, but like thatfolksy appeal. Granted, they think her stupidity is a bigger downfall, but they do say they’d probably like her as a person. Well, at least they did until they found out she was a quitter, and started noticing that her folksy appeal was a front. But, heck, a lot of y’all didn’t notice that either. It only even made sense to me when I found out her accent isn’t Alaska native, but a put-on charm. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/56 "2010-11-19T07:35:44Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The claim was that she ‘wasn’t a good speaker by any measure’. She’s not. She does an adequate job of reading other people’s words off a teleprompter. That’s it. There was absolutely nothing special about her convention speech. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/57 "2010-11-19T07:56:31Z")
**Scylla** I don’t think its very fair to call Obama a superior rhetorician. This would tend to imply that he is an empty vessel sprouting talking points. Fair enough, my OP is more than just a little biased, and does tend to caricaturise the protagonists more than just a little. However, my base point is that aside from whether your agree with their politics or not, Obama’s knowledge, recall, grasp of facts, analytical ability and skills in thinking ahead are so far superior to Palin’s that no matter what he is a far better debater. That if or when required to speak off the cuff to address her arguments, to deconstruct her policies, to provide an analysis of his own examples he can run rings around her. Palin, when asked, couldn’t even name a couple of recent Supreme Court decisions, let alone talk about what they meant to the general populace. I would feel very sure that Obama could do so, and not only provide a precis of the decision that somebody like myself (that doesn’t come from the US, and doesn’t fully understand your constitutional position) can understand, but he could also discuss the nuances with a law professor. I would also bet that Obama could talk at length about stuff like why a negative real interest rate is bad, what effect it has on the current account. On the other hand, it wouldn’t altogether surprise me if Palin couldn’t even tell you the difference between GNP and GDP, or explain the money multiplier effect of currency. The only way she could possibly hold her own is if they each take turns giving five minute potted speeches, instead of an actual debate. It’s very sad to say however, that I don’t believe there will ever be a genuine debate, after all - it would be akin to Pee Wee Herman agreeing to a cage match with Chuck Norris. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/58 "2010-11-19T08:04:09Z")
[Pygmalion & Galatea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_%28mythology%29) > [@](#): > > … > The basic Pygmalion story has been widely transmitted and re-presented in the arts through the centuries. At an unknown date, later authors give as the name of the statue that of the sea-nymph Galatea or Galathea. Goethe calls her Elise, based upon the variants in the story of Dido/Elissa. > > In the Middle Ages Pygmalion was held up as an example of the excesses of idolatry, probably spurred by Clement of Alexandria’s suggestion that Pygmalion had carved an image of Aphrodite herself. However, by the 18th century it was a highly influential love-story, seen as such in Rousseau’s musical play of the story. By the 19th century, the story often becomes one in which the awakened beloved rejects Pygmalion; although she comes alive, she is initially cold and unattainable. > > A twist on this theme can also be seen in the story of Pinocchio where a wooden puppet is transformed into a real boy, though in this case the puppet possesses sentience prior to its transformation; it is the puppet and not the woodcarver (sculptor) who beseeches the miracle. > … Appealing fantasy, if you own a network. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/59 "2010-11-19T12:21:57Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Really? You don’t recall her speech at the Republican convention, which electrified darned near everyone and had pundits saying it was one of the best political speeches in years, maybe decades? I remember she spoke, but not these reviews. 😉 > [@](#): > > Perhaps her best weapon is her enemies, who are so enraged and over-the-top in their hatred of her that they push everyone else into her corner. I agree that a lot of people (here and elsewhere) are hyperbolic in their reactions to her. They don’t want to give her credit for things she’s obviously done, like making some allies in Congress or making herself a major figure. But it’s not even remotely true that everyone else is in her corner. That’s just wrong. It’d be more accurate to say that everyone except religious conservatives left her corner during the 2008 elections. It goes without saying that she’s very unpopular with Democrats, but she’s also unpopular with independents. A large majority of people see her as unqualified for the office she wants. She’s been very successful at keeping herself in the public eye but her strategy looks more like what you’d do if you wanted to get ratings for a TV show than build up your credibility for higher office. She’s made herself the most polarizing conservative in the country the way Rush Limbaugh might’ve been in the '90s. He didn’t get to be president either. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169/60 "2010-11-19T13:17:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes but so far the resume doesn’t read well. She’s going to have a hard time arguing her resume is superior to his. > [@](#): > > Palin on the the other hand, is getting paid to rally crowds and has a better track record getting people elected. She already had success rallying crowds. She’s making allies for herself, which can only help in the primaries, but her “track record” is mostly a myth as far as I’m concerned. She endorsed some people and helped them raise money and they probably feel they owe her, as one usually does with a political patron, but it was voter turnout and the political environment that got those people elected, not her. Endorsements generally don’t do much. Her endorsement of Joe Miller certainly didn’t get him elected. > [@](#): > > She’s sharpening her speaking skills while he continues to use teleprompters. Meaningless and pointless unless you think she’s speaking ex tempore - which of course she isn’t because that hardly ever happens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-he-clean-her-clock-obama-vs-palin-in-debates/561169.md?page=4)