# Should Homeschooling be banned? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721 "2020-05-13T15:49:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/101 "2020-05-14T15:08:36Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Domestic tranquility requires that all participants in our national enterprise share a common understanding of citizenship. This understanding is best achieved through public education. Since private schools and homeschooling exist as options they must convey the position of the state in matters of citizenship. I find this notion creepy and more like something I would expect from China. Maybe I’m being wooshed here. Poe’s law and all. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/102 "2020-05-14T15:10:16Z")
Kimstu - Thanks for the link, very informative. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/103 "2020-05-14T15:40:41Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I believe children have a right to an education. And I am VERY pro-homeschooling. I think it should be available, and great pains taken to make sure that any regulation is not excessively burdensome. However, I also believe there needs to be a standard. If someone says “I want to homeschool my daughters and teach them only the things they need to be a traditional wife–nothing past basic reading and arithmetic–because I don’t want them to be able to leave our community”, would you consider that the right of the parent? > > I know this is an extreme example, but if we disagree on this issue, I am not sure we can have any discussion about the details. That’s just it, many of those who are home schooled are kept from public school specifically so that they do not have their children learning evil things like evolution, or really anything that would not be needed in order for them to properly fulfill their role in a Christian household. There are plenty of other reasons to home school that can have the kid turn out as well or better than public school. I did have a friend whose parents were both college educators. They homeschooled him for the most part, though he did attend school a couple times a week for partial days for socializing and things like PE. He turned out great. I haven’t talked to him in a well over a decade, but last i heard of him, he was doing something with Hall Effect Thrusters. > [@Oakminster](#): > > Wow. That’s the most bigoted thing I’ve seen posted here in a long time. Your post shows an epically remarkable level of ignorance that you chose to share. Yes, as I said, everyone I knew growing up that was homeschooling for religious reasons is in pretty bad shape now. They are on public assistance and have serious drug problems. None of them have any sort of college education. I grew up in an extremely white, very Christian neighborhood. There were quite a number of people who kept their kids out of school, and all of them were far behind the rest of us academically. My friend got beat by one of my neighbor’s fathers when, in 7th grade, he was surprised that his home schooled neighbor did not even know that the scientific consensus was that the earth was billions of years old. Try for less of a knee jerk reaction next time, not everything you disagree with is bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/104 "2020-05-14T15:55:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s just it, many of those who are home schooled are kept from public school specifically so that they do not have their children learning evil things like evolution, or really anything that would not be needed in order for them to properly fulfill their role in a Christian household. Right. But if someone thinks that that’s okay–that a parent has the right to undereducate their child, if they chose–then really, we can’t discuss details. Because that’s a fundamental issue. I feel really strongly every child is entitled to enough of an education to make their own choices–I don’t even care about evolution, specifically, but I think that they need to have the skills they need to be able to get a job, go to community college, live outside the community that raised them if they choose. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/105 "2020-05-14T17:24:38Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Right. But if someone thinks that that’s okay–that a parent has the right to undereducate their child, if they chose–then really, we can’t discuss details. Because that’s a fundamental issue. I feel really strongly every child is entitled to enough of an education to make their own choices–I don’t even care about evolution, specifically, but I think that they need to have the skills they need to be able to get a job, go to community college, live outside the community that raised them if they choose. I’m in the camp that thinks that’s not only not okay, that’s child abuse. And if all it impacted was the child, then I guess an argument can be made that since it came from your loins, it is your property to dispose of as you choose. I disagree with that argument, however, on the grounds that the child will not be under the parent’s care and guardianship forever, and needs to not be a burden to society as an adult. Just because you created a life doesn’t actually make you capable of raising a child. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/106 "2020-05-14T18:25:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m in the camp that thinks that’s not only not okay, that’s child abuse. > > And if all it impacted was the child, then I guess an argument can be made that since it came from your loins, it is your property to dispose of as you choose. I disagree with that argument, however, on the grounds that the child will not be under the parent’s care and guardianship forever, and needs to not be a burden to society as an adult. > > Just because you created a life doesn’t actually make you capable of raising a child. See, I disagree with that because I think a person is a person, not your property. I mean, I think a billionaire also has to educate their child, and I wouldn’t approve of them raising their children as illiterate perpetual dependents based on the argument that they would be able to provide for them. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/107 "2020-05-14T18:48:06Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **DMC** has already asked you to substantiate this claim. I’ll just add that parents’ undoubted rights to care and custody of minor children are not **unlimited** rights. You are not allowed to do anything you want with your kids just because you’re the parent. Children have rights too, and those must be respected even when it involves limiting parental control. > A fallacious argument. This issue isn’t about “raising your children” in general, this is about **providing specialized services that fulfill your children’s guaranteed right to an education**. > > Do you also disagree with the idea that you should have to prove to the government that you’re capable of doing a good job of providing medical care to your children before you’re allowed to, say, perform an appendectomy on them? > > Fuck no, right? Competent and effective medical treatment requires more than merely being a parent, it requires knowing what the hell you’re doing. We don’t just assume that parents can automatically be trusted to provide all the medical care that their children may need and have a right to get. > > Similarly, competent and effective education also requires knowing what the hell you’re doing, rather than merely being a parent. There’s nothing tyrannical or “unfree” about requiring parents to demonstrate that they know what the hell they’re doing before trusting them to be the sole providers of their children’s education. > [@Troxel v. Granville](#): > > The liberty interest at issue in this case-the interest of parents in the care, custody, and control of their childrenis perhaps the oldest of the fundamental liberty interests recognized by this Court. More than 75 years ago, in Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U. S. 390, 399, 401 (1923), we held that the “liberty” protected by the Due Process Clause includes the right of parents to “establish a home and bring up children” and “to control the education of their own.” Two years later, in Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U. S. 510, 534-535 (1925), we again held that the “liberty of parents and guardians” includes the right “to direct the upbringing and education of children under their control.” We explained in Pierce that “[t]he child is not the mere creature of the State; those who nurture him and direct his destiny have the right, coupled with the high duty, to recognize and prepare him for additional obligations.” Id., at 535. We returned to the subject in Prince v. Massachusetts, 321 U. S. 158 (1944), and again confirmed that there is a constitutional dimension to the right of parents to direct the upbringing of their children. “It is cardinal with us that the custody, care and nurture of the child reside first in the parents, whose primary function and freedom include preparation for obligations the state can neither supply nor hinder.” Id., at 166. > > In subsequent cases also, we have recognized the fundamental right of parents to make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of their children. See, e. g., Stanley v. Illinois, 405 U. S. 645, 651 (1972) (“It is plain that the interest of a parent in the companionship, care, custody, and management of his or her children ‘come[s] to this Court with a momentum for respect lacking when appeal is made to liberties which derive merely from shifting economic arrangements’” (citation omitted)); Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U. S. 205, 232 (1972) (“The history and culture of Western civilization reflect a strong tradition of parental concern for the nurture and upbringing of their children. This primary role of the parents in the upbringing of their children is now established beyond debate as an enduring American tradition”); Quilloin v. Walcott, 434 U. S. 246, 255 (1978) (“We have recognized on numerous occasions that the relationship between parent and child is constitutionally protected”); Parham v. J. R., 442 U. S. 584, 602 (1979) (“Our jurisprudence historically has reflected Western civilization concepts of the family as a unit with broad parental authority over minor children. Our cases have consistently followed that course”); Santosky v. Kramer, 455 U. S. 745, 753 (1982) (discussing “[t]he fundamental liberty interest of natural parents in the care, custody, and management of their child”); Glucksberg, supra, at 720 (“In a long line of cases, we have held that, in addition to the specific freedoms protected by the Bill of Rights, the ‘liberty’ specially protected by the Due Process Clause includes the righ[t] … to direct the education and upbringing of one’s children” (citing Meyer and Pierce)). In light of this extensive precedent, it cannot now be doubted that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment protects the fundamental right of parents to make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of their children. This is the cite. DMX was asking why I disagreed with Scalia’s dissent in that case, and I would be glad to debate it, but don’t want to hijack the thread. Not that I disagree with many of the concerns raised in the thread, but I would ask for a cite about this continuing assertion that a child has a “right to an education.” Where does that come from and what does it entail? Must they read The Canterbury Tales? Is basic literacy enough? Do they need to be able to name the author of the Declaration of Independence? The First President of the United States? I’m not trying to be nitpicky, but if we can’t start from a common baseline of understanding each other, I’m afraid that the debate will not be very productive. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/108 "2020-05-14T18:57:23Z")
The uniqueness of America derives from it’s government - the state. That uniqueness is communicated through the experiences citizens have interacting with the state and information communicated to citizens by the state. The standards set for school curricula are the most basic form of state communication. It is those standards that determine how citizens define their government. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/109 "2020-05-14T18:59:42Z")
I think “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” involve the ability to be financially independent. For that, a child needs to be exposed to an education that at least makes the attempt to get them to the skill level they would need to be successful in a community college. And before you point out that many high school graduates don’t meet that standard–that is absolutely true, and we need to fix that. But at least high school programs have that level of education as their goal. Will you answer my question? If someone says “I want to keep my girls ignorant so they can’t ever leave their men”, would you consider that within a parent’s rights? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/110 "2020-05-14T19:05:48Z")
“I want to keep my girls ignorant so they can’t ever leave their men”, would you consider that within a parent’s rights? Yes, that is the parents right because it deals with life style. However the state sets the standards for academic education. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/111 "2020-05-14T19:48:27Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” involve the ability to be financially independent. For that, a child needs to be exposed to an education that at least makes the attempt to get them to the skill level they would need to be successful in a community college. And before you point out that many high school graduates don’t meet that standard–that is absolutely true, and we need to fix that. But at least high school programs have that level of education as their goal. > > Will you answer my question? If someone says “I want to keep my girls ignorant so they can’t ever leave their men”, would you consider that within a parent’s rights? I would not. That is an abdication of the duties of a parent. But I do not support having to prove to the government that I am not doing something illegal or improper. I also fear that in a few years, if not now, people will argue that a statement to one’s own’s daughter that “The Bible says that your first and foremost duty as a woman is to support your husband, and that’s what we believe in this family” will be considered as bad as what you stated. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/112 "2020-05-14T19:49:53Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I get that but he made the ridiculous claim that “Some homeschooled kids learn nothing but how to read the bible, pray and do chores-”. Those kinds of comments really dont add anything to the conversation. Well, I can say with certainty the 3 kids of the asshat who lived in housing at NOB Norfolk had his very downtrodden wife [abused, hm. long sleeves and turtle necks and heavy makeup in August in Norfolk VA … nothing going on there folks] homeschool the kids and I heard them at their lessons outside one afternoon … reading writing and arithmatics for the boys, and enough math to do grocery shopping for the girls. The reading was out of the bible, and it was the only book in the house. My neighbor Pat and I would share the coupons out of the newspaper with her because he refused to let her get a newspaper even just to get coupons … Now, 30 years later I wonder what happened with the kids. I forsaw with Pat the boys going into the Navy and the girl eitehr running away and being a pregnant single mom dependent upon a string of abusive boyfriends, ot restarting the abuse cycle for herself because she didn’t know any better. Either way, she was probably hooked up with a man and pregnant at 16 … ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/113 "2020-05-14T19:57:40Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > See, I disagree with that because I think a person is a person, not your property. I mean, I think a billionaire also has to educate their child, and I wouldn’t approve of them raising their children as illiterate perpetual dependents based on the argument that they would be able to provide for them. Yeah, and as I said, I disagree with that argument as well, I’m just saying that it is the only thing I can even think of as a valid “justification” to allow parents to subject their children to substandard education. And I go on to point out that even in that case, society still has a compelling interest in preventing them from doing so. Personally, I think that parents are among the least qualified people to raise children. They have no experience and many conflicts of interest. Really, if you think about it, education has little to do with the parents. The provider of the education is the school, funded by society, and the beneficiaries of that education is the student and society. The parent’s main role should be to minimize their interference. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/114 "2020-05-14T20:07:57Z")
aruvqan, What you describe is the Conservative view of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is however life style and not the concern of the state. Home schooling has the potential for abuse. That is not sufficient cause for it to be banned. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/115 "2020-05-14T20:10:03Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I would not. That is an abdication of the duties of a parent. > > But I do not support having to prove to the government that I am not doing something illegal or improper. So you would object to having a required curriculum and testing to meet minimum standards in home schools? How can we tell if parents are abdicating their duties without ever checking in on the kids? Are we supposed to just take the parent’s word for it that they are healthy, safe, and adequately educated? > [@](#): > > I also fear that in a few years, if not now, people will argue that a statement to one’s own’s daughter that “The Bible says that your first and foremost duty as a woman is to support your husband, and that’s what we believe in this family” will be considered as bad as what you stated. Yeah, see, that’s why there is a difference between words and deeds. While the hypothetical statement that you made is pretty horrible and misogynistic, it would be a parent’s right to tell their child this. However, it would not be a parent’s right to force that role upon their child by denying them access to an education that would allow them to be financially independent. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/116 "2020-05-14T20:10:55Z")
K9…, Agreed! So the state (society) should regulate homeschooling. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/117 "2020-05-14T20:18:09Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > This is the cite. DMX was asking why I disagreed with Scalia’s dissent in that case, and I would be glad to debate it, but don’t want to hijack the thread. I’m pretty sure your quote header says it all. **Plurality** opinion. I’m also pretty sure that you’ll agree that courts and legal scholars aren’t nearly as unanimous on the establishment of binding precedent given that it wasn’t a majority opinion. Hell, even SCOTUS seems scared to clarify how to apply the _Marks_ rule as they’ve had many opportunities to do so. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/118 "2020-05-14T20:29:51Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > I’m pretty sure your quote header says it all. **Plurality** opinion. I’m also pretty sure that you’ll agree that courts and legal scholars aren’t nearly as unanimous on the establishment of binding precedent given that it wasn’t a majority opinion. Hell, even SCOTUS seems scared to clarify how to apply the _Marks_ rule as they’ve had many opportunities to do so. First, everything it cites is binding precedent. And it was a plurality of four and the part I quoted was agree with by Thomas in his concurrence but he did not join the opinion because he would have applied strict scrutiny. So this is binding as it had 5 votes and all of those prior cases hold it to be beyond dispute. The other justices didn’t really argue with the holding, they just argued that it didn’t apply to the Washington law specifically. Scalia had the only oddball view of it, and even he said that he agreed with it in substance, but as I said, I don’t want to hijack the thread. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/119 "2020-05-14T20:33:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So you would object to having a required curriculum and testing to meet minimum standards in home schools? > > How can we tell if parents are abdicating their duties without ever checking in on the kids? Are we supposed to just take the parent’s word for it that they are healthy, safe, and adequately educated? Again, how does the state determine that I am not beating my wife and preventing her from leaving the house? Do we have random home searches and invasion into private lives without cause just to ensure that nothing untoward is happening? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721/120 "2020-05-14T20:52:31Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, how does the state determine that I am not beating my wife and preventing her from leaving the house? Do we have random home searches and invasion into private lives without cause just to ensure that nothing untoward is happening? You are correct that much spousal abuse goes on without being detected or prosecuted. I would not consider that a good argument for enabling child abuse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homeschooling-be-banned/853721.md?page=7)