# Should Homophobe Muslims in the west realize that diversity and respect run both ways? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290 "2012-02-19T01:02:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/181 "2012-02-21T13:10:16Z")
> [@](#): > > It is extremely difficult to get those statistics in many cities of the world because the police keep the statistics politically correct by refering to the Perps as “Asians”. Now of course, an “Asian” can be a Chinese, a Mongolian, an Israeli Jew, an Indian, a Korean, someone from Siberia or a Pakistani or Bengali, a Syrian, etc. When you ask police how many of them were Muslims they tell you that they do not keep statistics on the religion of the Perps. > > But in places like Amsterdam, for instance, gay people are especially afraid of Moroccan and Algerian gangs. I call bullshit on this whole steaming pile of crap. Of course the police keep track of ethnicity, as relates to crime statistics. That’s how they can quote, ‘black on black crime’, or ‘Asian gang activity’. Your claim otherwise is utter nonsense. Who gay people are afraid of, in Europe, means nothing. Someone being afraid isn’t proof of anything. Look at you, you’re afraid of Islam, got your panties in a twist over scary Muslims. All while living in a country that just sent 3 people to prison for an ‘honor’ killing. A decision supported by every Muslim community in the country, and proof that, ‘it don’t work that way here’, is the message being sent - loud and clear. Yet here you are fear mongering and reaching to, ‘European gays _ **are** _ afraid…’, and so demonstrating, for all to see, the sad limits of your thinking capacity. I see a scared, sad, racist and I’m embarrassed you’re a Canadian. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/182 "2012-02-21T13:13:44Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Believe it or not, this Imam would not answer my question. … > > What does this Imam’s sneaky refusal to answer tell you? Because being pro-fatwa is clearly the only reason a person would be unwilling to continue a conversation with someone as reasonable and charming as **Valteron**. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/183 "2012-02-21T14:08:02Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Of course the police keep track of ethnicity, as relates to crime statistics. That’s how they can quote, ‘black on black crime’, or ‘Asian gang activity’. Your claim otherwise is utter nonsense. Actually, here in France they really don’t keep track of that stuff, or at least are not supposed to. The race question isn’t even on the census - it’s literally impossible to tell you how many black people or Asians or Semites there are in France. There are guesstimates out there but zero hard data, by policy (the policy, depending on who you ask, being either to pretend race issues don’t exist until they go away by themselves somehow, or to perpetuate racist policies & discrimination by making it impossible to prove them). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/184 "2012-02-21T14:21:09Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I see a scared, sad, racist [Old news.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=568488) ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/185 "2012-02-21T14:59:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, here in France But I’m not talking about France. I’m talking about where I live and our racist friend lives, they do keep track of such things. Even distinguishing between Vietnamese and Laotian gang activity. If he’s all hot about how things are, in Europe, then he should return there, and work for change. Coming here and spreading paranoia and hate is uncalled for. Such a shame that ‘closed minds’ are never accompanied by ‘closed mouths’. ---
**Author:** ![santorum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@santorum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/santorum)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/186 "2012-02-21T15:32:22Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I call bullshit on this whole steaming pile of crap. > > Of course the police keep track of ethnicity, as relates to crime statistics. That’s how they can quote, ‘black on black crime’, or ‘Asian gang activity’. Your claim otherwise is utter nonsense. > > Who gay people are afraid of, in Europe, means nothing. Someone being afraid isn’t proof of anything. > > Look at you, you’re afraid of Islam, got your panties in a twist over scary Muslims. All while living in a country that just sent 3 people to prison for an ‘honor’ killing. A decision supported by every Muslim community in the country, and proof that, ‘it don’t work that way here’, is the message being sent - loud and clear. > > Yet here you are fear mongering and reaching to, ‘European gays _ **are** _ afraid…’, and so demonstrating, for all to see, the sad limits of your thinking capacity. > > I see a scared, sad, racist and I’m embarrassed you’re a Canadian. shouldn’t that be ‘honour’ killing? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/187 "2012-02-21T15:41:50Z")
> [@](#): > > shouldn’t that be ‘honour’ killing? You’re right of course, the Canadian spelling is, indeed, ‘honour’. (But seriously, that’s your whole contributions here? No comment on topic? Nothing? Just spelling correction?) ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/188 "2012-02-21T15:53:03Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > My case it is rested, Hastings. Good! It was a very tired and weak case to begin with, and should be put to rest permanently. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/189 "2012-02-21T16:37:40Z")
> [@](#): > > …gay people are especially afraid of Moroccan and Algerian gangs . Gotta wonder if these Muslims are unusually talented, telepathy wise. Otherwise, how do they know who is gay in order to attack them? Best I can surmise, I have no “gaydar” at all, some friends of mine came out to me after years, and I hadn’t the foggiest. So how do they do it, how do they spot some guy on the street in France or Holland and know, aha! gay! let’s beat him up! ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/190 "2012-02-21T16:44:00Z")
And how do they know which ethnicity to hate, if the cops aren’t keeping track of who’s victimizing whom? Maybe they can tell a Syrian from a Jordanian or Iraqi, on sight? Maybe they have ‘hate-dar’? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/191 "2012-02-21T16:55:21Z")
I wonder if our friend has any experience with Sufi Islam? A more or less mystical offshoot, very pacifistic. Fond of aphorisms and stories. When you see an Islamic group doing outreach to other faiths, looking for common ground for humanity, its almost always Sufi. A sincere Christian and a sincere Sufi are more alike than different, looked at from a humane perspective. Not surprisingly, your more or less militant Muslims despise them. The people who wanted to build that so-called “Ground Zero mosque” were Sufi. Pretty good bunch of folks, as folks go, yet there they are, taking shit they have no connection to. One of their sayings I have taken to heart: “God respects me when I work, but He loves me when I sing.” Preach it, brother. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/192 "2012-02-21T16:55:26Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > And how do they know which ethnicity to hate, if the cops aren’t keeping track of who’s victimizing whom? Maybe they can tell a Syrian from a Jordanian or Iraqi, on sight? Maybe they have ‘hate-dar’? Hey, give credits where it’s due, you sneering colonial hick. France French cops have a very advanced and sophisticated brown-dar, I’ll have you know. It’s almost uncanny, how they always find the Algerian immigrants responsible for every crime. Even crimes the cops committed themselves ! ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/193 "2012-02-21T17:11:46Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Actually, none of the above. The first step would be for people like you in the democratic west to pull their head out of their ass. _\_ Okay! Step 2? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/194 "2012-02-21T17:15:17Z")
Shampoo. Lather, rinse, repeat, repeat, repeat… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/195 "2012-02-21T17:23:50Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > > [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > > > I don’t know about Canada, but here in the US, every reported gay bashing I’ve heard of was committed by either white rednecks or ghetto African-Americans, not Muslims. > > Please tell me where I can subscribe to these statistics on every reported gay-bashing in the United States with the stats broken down according to the religious identification of the perpetrator. I would be interested in seeing that list! I think you massively misunderstood **Ibn Warrag**. He didn’t say he’d seen a list of “statistics on every reported gay-bashing in the United States”: he was talking about reported gay-bashings that **he personally** had **heard of**. Statistics about hate crimes in the US, including anti-gay violence, are compiled by the FBI: AFAICT, the most recently published set is the one for [2010](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2010). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/196 "2012-02-21T17:33:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Come on Ibn, help the man out. He obviously can’t sleep at night unless he’s being properly persecuted. > > Valteron, you are an asshole and a shrill chicken little. > Do you feel better now? +1. The sad part is that you have a point, which is lost in these threads because you’re such a douche. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/197 "2012-02-21T17:53:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > . > > Gotta wonder if these Muslims are unusually talented, telepathy wise. Otherwise, how do they know who is gay in order to attack them? Best I can surmise, I have no “gaydar” at all, some friends of mine came out to me after years, and I hadn’t the foggiest. So how do they do it, how do they spot some guy on the street in France or Holland and know, aha! gay! let’s beat him up! They cruise around districts where there are gay bars. Stylishly dressed young men going to or from these bars on a Saturday night gives them some idea. Admittedly, gay bashers have been known to assault straight men just because they were small and fine-featured. They use the same methods gay-bashers have always used. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/198 "2012-02-21T17:58:43Z")
… is there a textbook or something? An eHow page? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/199 "2012-02-21T18:14:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I think you massively misunderstood **Ibn Warrag**. He didn’t say he’d seen a list of “statistics on every reported gay-bashing in the United States”: he was talking about reported gay-bashings that **he personally** had **heard of**. > > Statistics about hate crimes in the US, including anti-gay violence, are compiled by the FBI: AFAICT, the most recently published set is the one for [2010](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2010). First of all, is it not strange that when I mention a situation I or some friends in Berlin personally know of, it is completely swept aside by Tomndebb and others as anecdotal and of no value (and I am very nearly accused of lying and making the whole thing up). But when IBN Warraq testifies about the gay bashings he has heard of (unless he is gay or part of a gay rights group, one wonders how much he follows such stories) then nobody shoots down his information? Secondly, I have looked at the FBI Stats on hate crimes at the site you mentioned. Here is what they say about stats on offenders: \*"Law enforcement agencies specify the number of offenders and, when possible, the race of the offender or offenders as a group. By race In 2010, the races of the 6,008 known hate crime offenders were as follows: ■58.6 percent were white. ■18.4 percent were black. ■8.9 percent were groups made up of individuals of various races (multiple races, group). ■1.1 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander. ■1.0 percent were American Indian/Alaskan Native. ■12.0 percent were of unknown race."\* First of all, these stats are for the USA, where Muslims are still a small percentage. They are not for areas like the gay districts of Amsterdam or Berlin. Secondly, the stats illustrate my point. They are by race. Islam is not a race. Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East could fit into pretty much any racial category. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/200 "2012-02-21T18:29:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Oh very well. > I’ll give him his heart’s desire and do you one better. > > Valteron, you’re a kaffir and deserve to be treated as such. I am a Kaffir and proud of it Ibn! Islam means submissiion, and the day I submit to a fascistic religion, donkeys will fly. But concerning your false assertion that Miller did NOT call me an asshole, here is the quote from # 151: **“Well, they’re friends of yours, so odds are pretty good that they’re assholes, too.”** Too, in this context, clearly means “as well as you”. You can find Tomndebb’s reference to me as a scraed Chicken Little in the last para of #155. Now then, I am tired of being your search engine, Ibn. If you cannot find where those people called me those names, there is something wrong with your computer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290.md?page=11)