# Should Homophobe Muslims in the west realize that diversity and respect run both ways? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290 "2012-02-19T01:02:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/221 "2012-02-21T23:30:15Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Let us tell our political leaders that they can feel free to defend those values without being accused of bigotry. > > Sharia law courts. NOOOOOOOO! You come here, you live under our laws! > > Sexually segregated swimming hours at public pools? Sorry, that is not our value. Adapt to our values. We are not going to tell western men and women that they cannot swim at certain hours because of their gender, just to suit Islamic values. Part of the manifold problems with your posts is that you don’t really understand the evolution of “Western values” any more than you understand what you call “Islamic values”. Many Christians and Jews voluntarily seek arbitration by religious governing bodies in certain circumstances, rather than appealing solely to the laws of civil authorities. (For instance, observant Jews and Catholics require a determination from a religious official or organization before recognizing a divorce. The congregations of many Protestant churches recognize the authority of councils of elders to decree the “shaming” or ostracizing of members considered to be acting immorally. Etc., etc., etc.) So no, we cannot tell Muslim communities in the West that they can’t voluntarily establish religious arbitration entities such as Shari`a courts to make religious rulings within their own religious communities. That would be a violation of religious freedom as mandated by modern Western values. We can certainly forbid such entities to apply their rulings to non-Muslims and others who don’t recognize their authority, and we can require their decisions to comply with various baseline regulations in our laws (e.g., no mutilation, no stoning, etc.). But we can’t just make a blanket prohibition of “no Shari`a courts” and claim that we’re upholding freedom. That’s bullshit. > [@Valteron](#): > > Keeping dogs out of parks where many Muslims go because they consider them unclean? Protesting when Customs officers at the border use sniffer dogs on their luggage or in their cars? Sorry, but dogs are not “unclean” in our value system. Don’t cross the border and don’t go into those parks. Same goes for Muslim condo owners who tell me I cannot keep a dog in the building because it offends them. (Dog owners picking up dogshit is a separate issue here. . .no red herrings please). > > Demanding that women and men not wear bikinis and swim trunks to sun themselves in parks near Muslim neighbourhoods? Sorry, but OUR values allow that. Close your blinds. Again, a large part of your problem here is that you don’t understand the evolution of Western values themselves. You imagine that the particular modern urban level of social freedom that you’re personally familiar and comfortable with is somehow intrinsically and essentially “Western”. Nonsense. Westerners disagree all the time about what sort of behavior is socially acceptable, and what counts as socially acceptable in Western societies has changed very rapidly over a very short time. For example, until very recently, most Western societies had sex-segregated hours for public swimming-pool use (and many Western schools, for instance, still segregate swimming pool use by sex). Likewise, plenty of Westerners oppose swimsuit-wearing (or some subset of it, such as topless sunbathing or thong bikini bottoms) in public parks. Conservative Muslims have the same right as any other socially conservative people and/or anti-dog types to protest against current social customs that they find offensive. They certainly don’t have the right to impose their preferences on the majority who disagree with them, but they sure as hell have the right to express their preferences. Disagree with them courteously and go about your bikini-wearing, mixed-bathing, dog-walking business. (And yes, do pick up and properly dispose of your dog’s poop. As for the sniffer dogs, when they’re all replaced by [bees](http://www.inscentinel.com/InscentinelLtd/Pages/Science%20and%20technology/snifferbees.html) it will be a non-issue anyway.) > [@Valteron](#): > > A woman can wear a veil if she wants, yes. But some exceptions apply. Parents of young children in the west have the right to demand that young children not be taught by a creepy fantom in a black veil whose face they can’t see. Professors have the right to see the faces of people taking exams, especially when the person in the burqa suddenly seems to have grown and gotten fatter than the person they taught at the course. Parents have the right to see the face of the woman who is teaching their child, to recognize her. Why? Because that is part of our normal values in the west. > > As a taxpayer, I demand to be able to see the face and know at least the first name of the public servant or policewoman who deals with me at a government public service counter. I will NOT deal with a faceless ghost. The Hijab (scarf over the hair) does not bother me one bit. > > Persons receiving benefits and services from the state may need to show their face. A Customs officer may need to see your face to compare it with the passport photo. And NO, you may not demand a female Customs Officer in a closed room. The male Customs Officer sees the faces of millions of women and he does not leap across the counter and attack them in a fit of uncontrollable lust. It is not YOUR culture to show your face to a man? Tough! That is our culture. Show the male Customs Officer your face or get out of our country. On this issue, for a miracle, you happen to be right. I have explained in a number of similar threads before this my take on the principle that “burqa = purdah”: i.e., wearing the burqa is a tacit acceptance of the conservative Islamic prohibition against women participating in society outside their own homes or interacting in any way with males they’re not related to. The burqa should rightly be permitted as a sort of mobile purdah environment for Muslim women who need to do things like grocery shopping and going to the doctor while still technically not interacting with strangers. But Muslim women who want to participate in secular society in any meaningful way—whether by holding a job, taking a class, having an interview with a government official, whatever—need to comply with the universal custom in secular society of showing one’s face to strangers and speaking to them directly. > [@Valteron](#): > > Taxi drivers who refuse to pick up people at airports if they are carrying duty-free booze should have their taxi licences taken away. I believe this has already happened at one US airport, and it is a very good example of pushback. Congratulations! I have nothing against the expectation that Muslim taxi drivers at airports should be required to serve all passengers carrying items permitted by law, irrespective of whether those items comply with conservative Muslim doctrine or not. But only if it’s accompanied by an equally strong expectation that, say, Christian pharmacists at drugstores should be required to fill all prescriptions for legally-permitted substances, irrespective of whether those substances comply with conservative Christian doctrine or not. In fact, I propose that all the conservative Christian pharmacists become airport taxi drivers, since they have no doctrinal prohibition against transporting liquor, and all the conservative Muslim airport taxi drivers become pharmacists, since they have no doctrinal prohibition against birth control. Problems solved! > [@Valteron](#): > > My feeling about Muslim immigrants is this: IF WE CAN HOLD THE LINE IN DEFENSE OF OUR WESTERN VALUES AND TELL THOSE WHO WANT TO RECREATE AN ISLAMIC STATE IN OUR WESTERN COUNTRIES TO FIT IN OR SHIP OUT, the rest of the Muslim community will probably eventually fit nicely into our countries and become the valuable and respected citizens we would be proud to call friends and neighbours. As it happens, I know plenty of people in Muslim communities who are **already** an asset to my country and are valuable and respected citizens I’m proud to call friends and neighbors. They don’t need your seal of approval to be worthy of being here, dickhead. > [@Valteron](#): > > But this will only happen if the knee-jerk bleeding hearts get their heads out of their asses and realize that the rapid growth of Islamic immigrant communities in the west poses a problem and danger to our secular, democratic and free way of life that we have never dealt with before. Standard boilerplate hysteria directed against pretty much every immigrant community since human migrations began. It is perfectly possible for rational supporters of democratic freedom to oppose religious extremism and intolerance wherever it appears, without indulging in this sort of frantic spittle-flecked ranting about “help we’re being overrun by TEH ALIENS!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/222 "2012-02-21T23:38:41Z")
Valteron’s complaints about Muslims supposedly not believing in “the Seperation of Church and State” is rather ridiculous considering how many western countries don’t have Seperation of Church and State. Israel doesn’t believe in it, nor do any of the Scandanavian countries, nor does the UK or Ireland. Nor, for that matter, does his own Canada. Perhaps the US should forbid immigration from Canada until they mend their ways. ---
**Author:** ![Billy-o](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Billy-o](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy-o)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/223 "2012-02-22T00:11:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Perhaps the US should forbid immigration from Canada until they mend their ways. \ ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/224 "2012-02-22T01:22:39Z")
What Canada should clearly do is tighten immigration rules to exclude bigots and racists. That would be a step forward! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/225 "2012-02-22T03:22:34Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > What Canada should clearly do is tighten immigration rules to exclude bigots and racists. > > That would be a step forward! Canada may do what it chooses regarding immigration, but it sure would be nice to see them find a way to prohibit emigration of bigots, racists, and xenophobes of all stripes. We already have enough home grown nuts without accepting effluent running down across the 49th parallel and the St. Lawrence Seaway. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/226 "2012-02-22T15:18:30Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Except for the facts on the ground. In actuality, there might be a lot of that going on where he’s from, but most of it is just weird and unthinkable and smacks of hyperventilating based on willfully misconstruing a situation to make political hay out of it. You are a total fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/227 "2012-02-22T15:57:58Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > … Same goes for Muslim condo owners who tell me I cannot keep a dog in the building because it offends them. (Dog owners picking up dogshit is a separate issue here. . .no red herrings please). … So you’re cool with condo owners who ban dogs (and other pets) for any _other_ reason real or stupid, ya know their condo their rules, . . . or is that a red herring too? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/228 "2012-02-22T16:14:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Everybody already realizes that European and US situations differ in a number of ways. However, I don’t think the issue of percentage of Muslim population is as drastically divergent as you’re trying to make out. After all, the US has slightly under 1% Muslim population (as do Ireland and Finland), while the percentage for the UK, Sweden, Luxembourg, Greece, Spain, Denmark, Italy and Norway (as well as for Canada) is between 1% and 5%. Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland have between 5% and 6% Muslim population, while France tops the ranking in Western Europe with 7.5% and Iceland and most Eastern European countries have almost zero Muslim population. But it isn’t simply a matter of numbers, it’s a matter of concentration and distribution as well. That is, Muslims are not seven and a half per cent of every town and city in Paris, nor are they six percent of every town and city in Germany or the Netherlands. Muslim immigrants tend to concentrate into their own communities in larger cities, and it cannot reasonably be denied that a number of these communities have become (for all practical purposes) Islamic mini-states profoundly hostile to the rest of the nation. And it can hardly be denied that Muslim violence against Christans (and other non-Muslims) greatly outweighs Christian violence against Muslims. Christians don’t burn cars during Ramadan, nor do Christian street gangs harass and attack women whom they beleive are “immodestly” dressed, Christians have not bombed the offices of a humor magazine which they claim insulted Christianity, Christian mobs have not attacked mosques, Christians have not forced cartoonists and authors to go into hiding, and Christians have not bombed trains. Granted, most Muslims couldn’t care less about jihadism and just want to get on with their lives, but it’s quite clear that the level of violent radicalism is much higher in the Islamic world than the Western world, and it’s quite clear that there are many Muslims throughout the Islamic world who regard Western civilization as an enemy to be conquered. Moreover, thanks to the “Arab Spring,” the political power and influence of the Islamists is growing rapidly, particularly in Egypt. You may be right that Valteron is overreacting, but to insist that there is no serious problem with the growing presence of Islam in the west, that there is not a serious clash of two civilizations going on here, is whistling past the graveyard. To dismiss anyone who takes note of this danger as a “bigot” is dishonest and cowardly. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/229 "2012-02-22T16:19:39Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You are a total fucking idiot. Nah, “making political hay” is a reasonable characterization of a lot of **Valteron** ’s posting on this subject. Certainly radical-extremist Islamic fundamentalist violence against gays is a serious threat to freedom and civil rights (as is **all** violence against gays, of course). And Islamic fundamentalist support for terrorism or attempts to curtail civil liberties of non-Muslims must absolutely be rejected wherever it appears. But a lot of the stuff **Valteron** is getting all hysterical about is just superficial cultural difference, and it certainly isn’t heralding the fucking doom of Western civilization or any of that melodramatic guff. Taxi drivers not wanting to transport passengers carrying liquor? Condo owners not wanting their tenants to keep dogs? Residents near a park not wanting people in the park to wear bathing suits? Gimme a break. Non-Muslim majorities certainly shouldn’t feel obligated to change existing laws or behavior to conform to conservative Muslim cultural norms if they don’t want to, but neither should they indulge in panty-bunching hysterical fearmongering about OMG HELP WE’RE BEING OVERRUN. It just makes them look like a gaggle of xenophobic rubes panicking at the sight of “the furriners”. News flash, folks: yes, furriners are furrin and they’ve got lots of funny ways that ain’t what we do around here. And sometimes, being furrin and not accustomed to our ways, they get upset about our ways not being what they’re used to. Don’t go getting all flustered about it. Getting all flustered and scolding at the furriners for being too uppity just makes the nasty ones feel important while it makes the nice ones feel picked on. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/230 "2012-02-22T16:20:04Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > So you’re cool with condo owners who ban dogs (and other pets) for any _other_ reason real or stupid, ya know their condo their rules, . . . or is that a red herring too? > > CMC fnord! I assume you’d be cool with the owners forbidding tenants to have pork or alcohol on the premises or to display any religious symbols except Islamic ones. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/231 "2012-02-22T16:27:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Valteron’s complaints about Muslims supposedly not believing in “the Seperation of Church and State” is rather ridiculous considering how many western countries don’t have Seperation of Church and State. > > Israel doesn’t believe in it, nor do any of the Scandanavian countries, nor does the UK or Ireland. Nor, for that matter, does his own Canada. What do you mean, Canada doesn’t have any separation of church and state? I’d like to know what you’re thinking about before answering it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/232 "2012-02-22T16:28:44Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Muslim immigrants tend to concentrate into their own communities in larger cities, and it cannot reasonably be denied that a number of these communities have become (for all practical purposes) Islamic mini-states profoundly hostile to the rest of the nation. That sounds portentous and all, but I have no idea what it’s actually supposed to mean. Do these communities effectively have armies and police forces and territorial control that makes them not answerable to the law of the land? Or does it just mean that these are ethnic enclaves within larger communities still struggling with cultural assimilation? > [@Lonesome Polecat](#): > > You may be right that Valteron is overreacting, but to insist that there is no serious problem with the growing presence of Islam in the west, that there is not a serious clash of two civilizations going on here, is whistling past the graveyard. To dismiss anyone who takes note of this danger as a “bigot” is dishonest and cowardly. Nonsense. There is certainly a problem nowadays with Islamic violent extremist fundamentalism, to a small extent in the west and to a much greater extent in Islamic countries themselves. But that is not the same thing as there being a problem with “the growing presence of Islam in the west”. To conflate those two fundamentally different issues and pretend they’re the same thing is a noxious distortion of reality attributable only to bigotry or ignorance and fear, or some combination of all three. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/233 "2012-02-22T16:37:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Taxi drivers not wanting to transport passengers carrying liquor? Condo owners not wanting their tenants to keep dogs? Residents near a park not wanting people in the park to wear bathing suits? Gimme a break. > > Non-Muslim majorities certainly shouldn’t feel obligated to change existing laws or behavior to conform to conservative Muslim cultural norms if they don’t want to, but neither should they indulge in panty-bunching hysterical fearmongering about OMG HELP WE’RE BEING OVERRUN. It just makes them look like a gaggle of xenophobic rubes panicking at the sight of “the furriners”. The problem is that you accuse anyone who resists the changes they want to make, and who are quite naturally offended and upset that “furriners” want to change the rules in their communities, of being xenophobic bigots. And in some areas, we are being overrun. Wake up and smell the hummus. A particulary large pebble in my shoe is that swimming pool issue. Here non-Muslim men are denied access to a public facility for two or three hours several times a week, because Muslims claim it’s against their religion for men and women to swim together; yet many of the tolerant, open-minded sophisticated, cosmopolitan people who see no probem with this will have a hissy fit over a cross in a national park. If Muslims want gender segregation, they should build or buy their own private pools. They shouldn’t be allowed to change the rules at public facilities to suit their religion. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/234 "2012-02-22T16:40:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > To conflate those two fundamentally different issues and pretend they’re the same thing is a noxious distortion of reality attributable only to bigotry or ignorance and fear, or some combination of all three. Ptooey. Once again you’ve tiptoed quietly around the issue of Muslim violence against non-Muslims, preferring to indulge yourself in name-calling. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/235 "2012-02-22T16:49:58Z")
> [@](#): > > …They shouldn’t be allowed to change the rules at public facilities to suit their religion. No, they shouldn’t. But if the surrounding community offers to accommodate them, as a gesture of humane tolerance and generosity, as a way of signaling that they have little or nothing to fear from the strangers around them…what’s the harm? Around here, I can’t buy booze on Sunday, because of Christians. OK, so I buy it on Saturday, or stay sober. Big hairy ass deal. So, who changed the rules? Did they, with violence or threats of violence? Or did the surrounding communities shrug and say “OK, what the heck. We’ll cut you some slack, no biggy.”? > [@](#): > > …Wake up and smell the hummus… I don’t eat Lebanese food, it makes me feel awful… ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/236 "2012-02-22T17:06:16Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I assume you’d be cool with the owners forbidding tenants to have pork or alcohol on the premises or to display any religious symbols except Islamic ones. Hmmm, dogs (and other pets) banned from condos, forbidding tenants to have pork or alcohol, forbidding tenants to display any religious symbols except Islamic ones. Let me think. 😕 Oh yeah, that’s it, One of these things is not like the others, One of these things just doesn’t belong, Can you tell which thing is not like the others, By the time I finish my post? CMC fnord! Ya know, it is entirely possible that some Muslim condo owners might just ban dogs for the exact same reason that non-Muslim condo owners do. If you pass a law that prevents Muslim condo owners from banning dogs for specifically religious reasons they can simply ban them for the non-religious reasons that non-Muslim condo owners are allowed to, and do. Given that I’m quite familiar with you, and your posting history, you’ll certainly forgive me for thinking that you really didn’t think this, or it, through before you decided to responded to me. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/237 "2012-02-22T17:08:56Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > The problem is that you accuse anyone who resists the changes they want to make, and who are quite naturally offended and upset that “furriners” want to change the rules in their communities, of being xenophobic bigots. Resisting changes that the “furriners” want to make doesn’t make anyone a xenophobic bigot: I’ve said quite clearly all along that non-Muslim majorities shouldn’t feel obligated to change existing laws and behavior to conform to conservative Muslim norms. It’s the getting all offended and upset that a group of fellow-citizens with different cultural norms from yours have the nerve to even TRY to push for changes in existing laws and behavior to conform to their cultural norms that makes one a xenophobic bigot. A free society means that people of different views argue publicly about what social norms should be. Conservative Muslims are just as entitled as any other prudish people to attempt in a courteous and law-abiding way to make the prevailing social norms conform more closely to what they consider appropriate behavior. > [@Lonesome Polecat](#): > > Here non-Muslim men are denied access to a public facility for two or three hours several times a week, because Muslims claim it’s against their religion for men and women to swim together; yet many of the tolerant, open-minded sophisticated, cosmopolitan people who see no probem with this will have a hissy fit over a cross in a national park. The cross in a national park issue is quite clearly government promotion of religion, and consequently clearly unconstitutional. Including some sex-segregated swimming times in a local swimming pool schedule to accommodate residents with different cultural norms may not be a wise or fair local policy choice with respect to the preferences of the majority, but I cannot for the life of me see how it would count as unconstitutional. Consequently, I think the relative allocation of hissy fits by tolerant open-minded sophisticated cosmopolitan people concerning these two issues has been correctly determined. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/238 "2012-02-22T17:11:06Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > What do you mean, Canada doesn’t have any separation of church and state? I’d like to know what you’re thinking about before answering it. The Canadian head of state is the head of the Anglican church. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/239 "2012-02-22T17:12:15Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Ptooey. Once again you’ve tiptoed quietly around the issue of Muslim violence against non-Muslims, preferring to indulge yourself in name-calling. Once again you’ve deliberately and misleadingly characterized radical Muslim-fundamentalist extremist violence against non-Muslims as “Muslim violence against non-Muslims”, justifying still further my use of the term “bigotry”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/240 "2012-02-22T17:13:05Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > What do you mean, Canada doesn’t have any separation of church and state? I’d like to know what you’re thinking about before answering it. They don’t. Their constitution is based on the UK not the US. Why do you think the sessions of the House of Commons was opened, until very recently, with an explicitly Christian prayer. > [@](#): > > O Lord our heavenly Father, high and mighty, King of kings, Lord of lords, the only Ruler of princes, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers upon earth: Most heartily we beseech thee with thy favour to behold our most gracious Sovereign Lady, Queen Elizabeth; and so replenish her with the grace of thy Holy Spirit that she may always incline to thy will and walk in thy way; Endue her plenteously with heavenly gifts: grant her in health and wealth long to live; strengthen her that she may vanquish and overcome all her enemies; and finally, after this life, she may attain everlasting joy and felicity; through Jesus Christ our Lord — Amen. > Almighty God, the fountain of all goodness, we humbly beseech thee to bless Elizabeth the Queen Mother, the Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, Charles, Prince of Wales, and all the Royal Family: Endue them with thy Holy Spirit; enrich them with thy Heavenly Grace; prosper them with all happiness; and bring them to thine everlasting kingdom; through Jesus Christ our Lord — Amen. > > Most gracious God, we humbly beseech thee, as for the United Kingdom, Canada and Her Majesty’s other Realms and Territories, so especially for Canada, and herein more particularly for the Governor General, the Senate, and the House of Commons, in their legislative capacity at this time assembled; that thou wouldst be pleased to direct and prosper all their consultations, to the advancement of thy glory, the safety, honour, and welfare of our Sovereign and Her Realms and Territories, that all things may be so ordered and settled by their endeavours, upon the best and surest foundations, that peace and happiness, truth and justice, religion and piety, may be established among us for all generations. These, and all other necessaries for them, and us, we humbly beg in the name, and through the mediation of Jesus Christ, our most blessed Lord and Saviour — Amen. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed by thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil — Amen. David Frum gave other examples in a discussion over the hissy fits a few Canadians engaged in when they heard of the possibility of having “ZOMG SHARIA COURTS!!!” in Ontario. [http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDAyYzYwM2I2ODBkYmQzODYzMDMzOTcxMDY0YTliYTE=](http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDAyYzYwM2I2ODBkYmQzODYzMDMzOTcxMDY0YTliYTE=) > [@](#): > > First, Canada for complicated historical reasons does not separate religion and state as strictly as the United States. The province of Ontario, for example, funds Catholic education all the way through high school; in Quebec, English-speaking schools are governed not by an English schoolboard but by a Protestant schoolboard. > > Second, Ontario has permitted other religious groups—notably Orthodox Jews—to arbitrate family law and divorce matters according to religious law. It was not a completely crazy notion to add an Islamic court to the list. Separation of Church and State is hardly a universal Western value. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290.md?page=13)