# Should Homophobe Muslims in the west realize that diversity and respect run both ways? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290 "2012-02-19T01:02:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/101 "2012-02-19T23:15:29Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > As a gay person who has fought all his life for what we have achieved, at what point can I start pushing back against Islamic homophobia in my own democratic country without being called a bigot? Wait a sec…aren’t you the froot loop[sup]®[/sup] who was raving about how finding a Gideon’s Bible in your hotel room proved that the hotel had committed a HATE CRIME against you? … [Yes you were](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=470142). You got about as much credibility on the subject of anti-gay prejudice as Fred Phelps has on love and tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/102 "2012-02-19T23:16:06Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > OKAY! So now I have to prove that ANYONE who criticizes Islamic homophobes will be called a bigot! So even if FinnAgain and Miller call me a bigot, it is still not enough. Well, the fact that you are a bigot complicates the analytical endeavor. I would probably call you a bigot if you were ordering fries with your hamburger, but that doesn’t mean that everybody who orders fries is a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/103 "2012-02-19T23:18:39Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Wait a sec…aren’t you the froot loop[sup]®[/sup] who was raving about how finding a Gideon’s Bible in your hotel room proved that the hotel had committed a HATE CRIME against you? > > … > > [Yes you were](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=470142). > > You got about as much credibility on the subject of anti-gay prejudice as Fred Phelps has on love and tolerance. Please show me where I said that it was a “hate crime” against me. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/104 "2012-02-19T23:23:45Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > that same homophobic ideology that is Islam arrives in democratic countries and begins to impose its hatred on me Am I the only one who, while reading these descriptions of an amorphous ideology personified, evil and out to get Valteron… pictures a homeless guy with filthy, stringy hair ranting on the street corner about how the CIA is controlling his mind and ideas are streaming across the borders in order to impose their hatred on him? I’m not, am I? Glad we could clear that up. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/105 "2012-02-19T23:26:30Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Wait a sec…aren’t you the froot loop[sup]®[/sup] who was raving about how finding a Gideon’s Bible in your hotel room proved that the hotel had committed a HATE CRIME against you? > > … > > [Yes you were](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=470142). > > You got about as much credibility on the subject of anti-gay prejudice as Fred Phelps has on love and tolerance. BTW, it did not occurr to you that I was using satirical, semi-serious argument to start a discussion on the approprirateness of hotels putting religious texts in the rooms of people who have not asked for them, now did it? In any event, I did not believe that a group of Gideons was about to break down our hotel room door and implement the Leviticus-ordained death sentence on my spouse and I.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/106 "2012-02-19T23:30:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Am I the only one who, while reading these descriptions of an amorphous ideology personified, evil and out to get Valteron… pictures a homeless guy with filthy, stringy hair ranting on the street corner about how the CIA is controlling his mind and ideas are streaming across the borders in order to impose their hatred on him? > > I’m not, am I? > Glad we could clear that up. Actually, I look a lot like this Italian Muslim guy except that my hair is straight and I am older. And I wear suits a lot.[http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=blonde+muslims&hl=en&biw=960&bih=495&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=E2Y-9xjDncKpkM:&imgrefurl=http://www.realclearreligion.com/index\_files/archive-sep-2007.php&docid=mUokhIQMUMZoBM&imgurl=http://www.realclearreligion.com/index\_files/eurabia\_muslim\_italy.jpg&w=360&h=365&ei=4oVBT5eCD4q-0QHqg8S0Bw&zoom=1](http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=blonde+muslims&hl=en&biw=960&bih=495&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=E2Y-9xjDncKpkM:&imgrefurl=http://www.realclearreligion.com/index_files/archive-sep-2007.php&docid=mUokhIQMUMZoBM&imgurl=http://www.realclearreligion.com/index_files/eurabia_muslim_italy.jpg&w=360&h=365&ei=4oVBT5eCD4q-0QHqg8S0Bw&zoom=1) ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/107 "2012-02-19T23:55:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Am I the only one who, while reading these descriptions of an amorphous ideology personified, evil and out to get Valteron… pictures a homeless guy with filthy, stringy hair ranting on the street corner about how the CIA is controlling his mind and ideas are streaming across the borders in order to impose their hatred on him? > > I’m not, am I? > Glad we could clear that up. Well, FinnAgain, we have a saying in French that insults are the weapons of the man who has no arguments. This is why I rarely if ever avail myself of the ability to insult people here in the Pit. Oh, and I have two homes, a luxury condo in the city and a country vacation home in the mountains. I speak English, French and German. And btw, I just emailed my German friends in the Berlin gay scene who inform me that they have been urging victims of gay bashing to come forward with info about their attackers. While they are the first to admit that this is NOT a scientific survey, preliminary indications are that the MAJORITY of gay bashings over the last two years are by people who appear and sound like they are of North-African, Middle-East origin. They have tried to take this info to the Police, but the cops are scared shitless of touching a statistic like that. As I said, it is NOT scientific. Maybe there is just a rash ofviolently homophobic Sephardic Jews that has suddenly come intoBerlin without anyone knowing.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/108 "2012-02-19T23:56:53Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Oh, and I have two homes, a luxury condo in the city and a country vacation home in the mountains. Be careful, we all know that Islam is spread by the sword. Muslims will probably be there soon to take your stuff from you. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/109 "2012-02-20T00:08:27Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Be careful, we all know that Islam is spread by the sword. > Muslims will probably be there soon to take your stuff from you. Islam spread itself by violence? Come on! Every century from 600 to 800 A.D., it was just PURE COINCIDENCE that people suddenly wanted to convert to Islam after the Muslim armies arrived. It is just a pure coincidence that Europeans decided to stop converting to Islam after Charles Martel defeated the Muslims at the Battle of Tours. Violence in Islam? Next you are going to tell me Muslims are fighting with their neighbours in Israel, the Philippines, Kashmir, Thailand, western China, the Balkans and a dozen other countries. Or that they would strap explosives on their kids and send them as suicide martyrs. Or that Muslims in the Northern Sudan would massacre and enslave the non-Muslims in the south of the country. Or that September 11 was the work of Muslims??? Or the shoe bomber. Or the Madrid or London bombings. Or the Bali nightclub bombing. How DARE you suggest Islam could be violent! You RACIST you!😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/110 "2012-02-20T00:48:43Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Islam spread itself by violence? Come on! Every century from 600 to 800 A.D., it was just PURE COINCIDENCE that people suddenly wanted to convert to Islam after the Muslim armies arrived. Generally, it was no coincidence that people converted to Islam after they discovered that the tax burden for Muslims was lighter than the tax burden had been under the Byzantime Empire. (Even for Christians paying _jizya_ it was lower than the Byzantine taxes, but they got an even better break if they converted.) > [@Valteron](#): > > It is just a pure coincidence that Europeans decided to stop converting to Islam after Charles Martel defeated the Muslims at the Battle of Tours. There were not any French converting to Islam in any case, so that is a silly claim. > [@Valteron](#): > > Violence in Islam? Next you are going to tell me Muslims are fighting with their neighbours in Israel, the Philippines, Kashmir, Thailand, western China, the Balkans and a dozen other countries. Israel and Kashmir are based on political groups wanting land and power. In the Phillipines, the Muslims have been discriminated against and their lands taken after the U.S. kicked Spain out, with the U.S. and then the Christian Filipino governments continuing to take Muslim land. In the Balkans, there was a serious effort by the Serbs to eliminate the Muslims through genocide. Rather than hostile Muslims, I am seeing a pretty clear pattern of the oppression of Muslims against which, for some odd reason, they choose to fight back. In other locations, the Muslims have been the aggressors–pretty much the way that Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, and other humans have behaved for years. > [@Valteron](#): > > Well, FinnAgain, we have a saying in French that insults are the weapons of the man who has no arguments. This is why I rarely if ever avail myself of the ability to insult people here in the Pit. Yeah. You prefer to drop vague insults of strangers into Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/111 "2012-02-20T01:04:25Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I just emailed my German friends in the Berlin gay scene who inform me that they have been urging victims of gay bashing to come forward with info about their attackers. While they are the first to admit that this is NOT a scientific survey, preliminary indications are that the MAJORITY of gay bashings over the last two years are by people who appear and sound like they are of North-African, Middle-East origin. They have tried to take this info to the Police, but the cops are scared shitless of touching a statistic like that. Now, if you have actual evidence that “the cops are scared shitless of touching a statistic like that,” you could have made your case in Great Debates. Of course, if all you have is the personal opinions of a few people who think and speak the way you do, then we are back to just Islam bashing. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/112 "2012-02-20T01:15:57Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Not That There’s Anything Wrong With That. Thank you. I always hated that line, which is probably why I didn’t think of it. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/113 "2012-02-20T01:42:33Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Oh, and I have two homes, a luxury condo in the city and a country vacation home in the mountains. I speak English, French and German. And btw, I just emailed my German friends in the Berlin gay scene who inform me that they have been urging victims of gay bashing to come forward with info about their attackers. While they are the first to admit that this is NOT a scientific survey, preliminary indications are that the MAJORITY of gay bashings over the last two years are by people who appear and sound like they are of North-African, Middle-East origin. They have tried to take this info to the Police, but the cops are scared shitless of touching a statistic like that. Why on earth would they have to “touch a statistic like that” in order to arrest someone for assault? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/114 "2012-02-20T02:18:36Z")
Val, Have you ever been to Germany or France? If so, you’d know the idea that the police were loathe to hassle or arrest Middle-Eastern looking people is laughable. Moreover, the last time I was in Germany Muslims were vastly more likely to be the victims of violent group attacks then perpetrate them. Sorry, but we’re going to need far more evidence then your word that most gay-bashing in Germany aren’t committed by unemployed German youths as opposed to Muslims. Certainly Rostock’s tough guys have never struck me as the kind of people who love gays. Anyway, you’ve never explained why you’re so much more terrified of Muslims than of fundamentalist Christians who exercise vastly more power and influence in the US. I certainly don’t think Rick Warren or Rick Santorum face Mecca when they pray. Moreover, I have a difficult time believing that any but a tiny minority of gay bashings in the US or Canada are committed by Muslims. What really happened to cause you to hate us so much? Did one of us break your heart or complain you were getting too fat? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/115 "2012-02-20T03:19:00Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Oh, and I have two homes, a luxury condo in the city and a country vacation home in the mountains. I speak English, French and German. That sounds great. Can I come hang out with you? Fair warning, I’m married and straight, so I’m not going to bottom or anything, unless… how big _is_ the vacation home, again? ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/116 "2012-02-20T03:31:46Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Actually, I look a lot like this Italian Muslim guy except that my hair is straight and I am older. And I wear suits a lot. See you are not fat, and you wear suits…no need to be such a hater. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/117 "2012-02-20T04:50:13Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Well, Napier, you may notice that sending my threads to the Pit is something Tonndeb has been known to do with what seems to me very slight justification. > > The main effect of sending me to the Pit is that my opponents are then free to yell and scream invective at me instead of using reasonable arguments. I’m not seeing much of a debate here. More like a rant. I don’t think a single person here would defend homo-phoning Muslims _(“Hello, do you have Prince Al-Baert in the can?”)_ Sorry, I mean homophobes. But as a rant, it’s got a good beat; easy to dance to. And less whack job than usual! ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/118 "2012-02-20T15:44:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I was unaware that it was impossible to criticize Muslims who engaged in homophobia without being called a bigot. You can’t criticize Muslims at all with being called a bigot or an “Islamophobe” (yet another example of the egregious abuse of the “-phobe” suffix). ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/119 "2012-02-20T16:24:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The OP is a stooge, a dupe, either knowingly or otherwise, he labors to distract our attention from our real enemies, enemies in our very midst. Enemies who gnaw away, quietly, subtly, at the very foundations of our civilization. Behind the mask of modesty and simplicity is a whirling chaos of hatred and cunning. Intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, slowly and surely draw their plans against us. > > The discerning reader will know at once that, of course, I speak of the Amish… For a moment there, you sounded like Der Trihs talking about the Tea Party. The shout out to H.G. Wells was quite pleasing, though … ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290/120 "2012-02-20T17:44:58Z")
When are we gonna ban this guy? He’s gay, and he frightens me! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-homophobe-muslims-in-the-west-realize-that-diversity-and-respect-run-both-ways/613290.md?page=7)